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 Post subject: Masterclass
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:47 pm 
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I originally talked about this with Yoz as preparation for the PQ, but I guess that's not happening anymore, so...




The Chosen of Ochre
This is the masterclass for Musalis, the Priestess. Having spent years in Ochres service, she has formed a strong bond with her God, which allows her to wield his gifts with more power, finesse and versatility that is beyond common priest. Musalis can get skills and specials that explicitly change or enhance her praying and the effect of her boons. Upon having a prayer granted, she also receives perfect knowledge of what the prayer does.



Examples of skills and specials that would be possible with this (they would of course each be subject to individual acceptance by a mod):



Prayers:

(adding an extra post works as follows: when counting posts for a prayer, I'd write Praying: x+y posts, where x is the count of normal posts and y the count of extra cost due to skills or specials. They count equally, though, so a 3+1 post prayer should get the same level of response as a 4 post prayer)

Ochre's favor
Musalis prayers count more in the eyes of Ochre since she is his trusted follower
(this adds 1 extra post per prayer. The post is add when the prayer is started)
(Skilll, strong)

The enemy's song
If Musalis opponent for any reasons sings during a post, that post counts as a post Musalis is praying.
(Skill, weak)

Earlier song
Musalis prays a lot when she is not fighting but just living her normal life. She can call upon one of these previous prayers in battle to help her.
(This acts as an instant prayer worth 3 posts (unless other skill/special add to that), without Musalis having to pray.)
(Special, strong, 1x)

An extra chance for help
Just when she couldn't get another prayer to her God, Musalis can call upon her devotion to Ochre and get the prayer through anyway.
(the prayer effected by this doesn't count towards the ones Musalis is allowed due to her bible)
(Special, medium, 1x)

Effective praying
Musalis can double the effectiveness of her praying, allowing her to gain two posts for praying the post she is using this skill.
(Special, Strong, 3x)



Boons:

Change Target
Musalis can change the target for any boon that specifies a target.
[Skill, Weak]

Reuse
Musalis can call upon any boon of no more than medium strength (effectively giving that boon another use), or prayer effect that has been in effect earlier in the battle. Each use must be for a different effect.
[Special, Strong, 2x]

Hold
Musalis can put any boon with a duration on hold, and let it resume at a later time of her choosing. She may only have one thing on hold at any given time.
[Skill, Strong]

Boost
Musalis greatly increases the power of her next boon.
[Special, medium, 1x]

Focus
Musalis can focus the effects of a boon so that is affects a smaller area but is more powerful. The total power is halved by this (focusing an effect to one fourth of the original area will give it twice the effect)
[Skill, Weak]

Extended duration
Musalis can extend the duration of a boon (if said effect does have a duration) by 1 post.
[Special, Medium, 3x]

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:41 pm 
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I'll get to this, BDF - I promise.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:32 am 
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leboyX wrote:
I'll get to this, BDF - I promise.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:57 am 
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bluedragonfire wrote:
Prayers:

(adding an extra post works as follows: when counting posts for a prayer, I'd write Praying: x+y posts, where x is the count of normal posts and y the count of extra cost due to skills or specials. They count equally, though, so a 3+1 post prayer should get the same level of response as a 4 post prayer)

Ochre's favor
Musalis prayers count more in the eyes of Ochre since she is his trusted follower
(this adds 1 extra post per prayer. The post is add when the prayer is started)
(Skilll, strong)

The enemy's song
If Musalis opponent for any reasons sings during a post, that post counts as a post Musalis is praying.
(Skill, weak)
[I'm not sure when this would ever happen, but ok. They'd have to sing for at least three posts to be effective, right? Those are pretty slim odds...]

Earlier song
Musalis prays a lot when she is not fighting but just living her normal life. She can call upon one of these previous prayers in battle to help her.
(This acts as an instant prayer worth 3 posts (unless other skill/special add to that), without Musalis having to pray.)
(Special, strong, 1x)
[I'd say this is only medium, really. Rather handy, in fact.]

An extra chance for help
Just when she couldn't get another prayer to her God, Musalis can call upon her devotion to Ochre and get the prayer through anyway.
(the prayer effected by this doesn't count towards the ones Musalis is allowed due to her bible)
(Special, medium, 1x)
[Could you provide details as to the use of this?]

Effective praying
Musalis can double the effectiveness of her praying, allowing her to gain two posts for praying the post she is using this skill.
(Special, Strong, 3x)
["Double" and "gain two posts" don't line up unless the prayer was only prayer was only 2 "natural" posts. I'm inclined to shoot this one down, mostly because you can get a prayer > 1 page for just 4 posts of prayer, if I'm to take the "double" meaning literally. If you're just increasing prayer post count (PPC?) by two, I guess that's alright. However, I'm growing concerned with how easy it's becoming to get lengthy prayers. You have 2 or 3 skills which increase PPC implicitly (skill) or explicitly (special) - I'm not in favor of this seamlessly stacking.]


Boons:

Change Target
Musalis can change the target for any boon that specifies a target.
[Skill, Weak]

Reuse
Musalis can call upon any boon of no more than medium strength (effectively giving that boon another use), or prayer effect that has been in effect earlier in the battle. Each use must be for a different effect.
[Special, Strong, 2x]

Hold
Musalis can put any boon with a duration on hold, and let it resume at a later time of her choosing. She may only have one thing on hold at any given time.
[Skill, Strong]

Boost
Musalis greatly increases the power of her next boon.
[Special, medium, 1x]

Focus
Musalis can focus the effects of a boon so that is affects a smaller area but is more powerful. The total power is halved by this (focusing an effect to one fourth of the original area will give it twice the effect)
[Skill, Weak]
[This and "boost" are similar, but their strengths disagree. "Focus" will not really be too effective as-is - effective areas generally aren't large. Cutting those to 1/4 of their original will make it nearly impossible to use. More like "shooting fish in a barrel".]

[I'm fine w/ "Boost", though]


Extended duration
Musalis can extend the duration of a boon (if said effect does have a duration) by 1 post.
[Special, Medium, 3x]


Overall, I like the direction of this master class. It's clearly enhancing the key attributes of the priest class, esp. Musalis' affinity for singing and prayer. My greatest concern is the stacking of PPC-increasing abilities and specials.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:40 am 
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leboyX wrote:
The enemy's song
If Musalis opponent for any reasons sings during a post, that post counts as a post Musalis is praying.
(Skill, weak)
[I'm not sure when this would ever happen, but ok. They'd have to sing for at least three posts to be effective, right? Those are pretty slim odds...]


The odds of this happening are small, yes. It is basically mostly a flavour skill, but since it is quite potent if it does happen, I shouldn't get it for free.

They opponent does not have to sing three posts, though. The song of the opponent would not count as a separate prayer, but add to Musalis' current prayer, or her next prayer if she isn't singing right now. So if Musalis uses three posts to pray, and the opponent sings one post for some strange reason, Musalis would have a prayer worth four posts.

leboyX wrote:
Earlier song
Musalis prays a lot when she is not fighting but just living her normal life. She can call upon one of these previous prayers in battle to help her.
(This acts as an instant prayer worth 3 posts (unless other skill/special add to that), without Musalis having to pray.)
(Special, strong, 1x)
[I'd say this is only medium, really. Rather handy, in fact.]


I've been making these skills and specials on the rough basis that getting three posts worth of prayer is roughly worth a strong. But I'd be happy to get it for a medium. =D

leboyX wrote:
An extra chance for help
Just when she couldn't get another prayer to her God, Musalis can call upon her devotion to Ochre and get the prayer through anyway.
(the prayer effected by this doesn't count towards the ones Musalis is allowed due to her bible)
(Special, medium, 1x)
[Could you provide details as to the use of this?]


With her current bible, Musalis can use 1 prayer on the first page of a battle, and 2 on each other page. On any page where she has used up those uses, she could finish another prayer by using this skill. So she could get 2 prayers on page 1 or 3 prayers on any of the other pages.

Now, currently she wouldn't have any use for this, since prayers take time to get to a decent size. However, with some of the other skills I proposed here, she will eventually be able to pray a bit faster, making it possible to that she might want to make more prayers on a page than her bible currently allows.

leboyX wrote:
Effective praying
Musalis can double the effectiveness of her praying, allowing her to gain two posts for praying the post she is using this skill.
(Special, Strong, 3x)
["Double" and "gain two posts" don't line up unless the prayer was only prayer was only 2 "natural" posts. I'm inclined to shoot this one down, mostly because you can get a prayer > 1 page for just 4 posts of prayer, if I'm to take the "double" meaning literally. If you're just increasing prayer post count (PPC?) by two, I guess that's alright. However, I'm growing concerned with how easy it's becoming to get lengthy prayers. You have 2 or 3 skills which increase PPC implicitly (skill) or explicitly (special) - I'm not in favor of this seamlessly stacking.]


Ah, no, the doubling effect was only meant for the one post where the special is used. So the post where this special was used would add 2 to her prayer post count instead of 1.

leboyX wrote:
Focus
Musalis can focus the effects of a boon so that is affects a smaller area but is more powerful. The total power is halved by this (focusing an effect to one fourth of the original area will give it twice the effect)
[Skill, Weak]
[This and "boost" are similar, but their strengths disagree. "Focus" will not really be too effective as-is - effective areas generally aren't large. Cutting those to 1/4 of their original will make it nearly impossible to use. More like "shooting fish in a barrel".]


Hmm... I was thinking of, for example, focusing Concussion into a tight beam. That should decrease the affected area drastically, and so increase the effect quite a bit too. That's the only area effect boon I currently have, so how useful this skill is would depend on what other boon I'd get in the future.

leboyX wrote:
Overall, I like the direction of this master class. It's clearly enhancing the key attributes of the priest class, esp. Musalis' affinity for singing and prayer. My greatest concern is the stacking of PPC-increasing abilities and specials.

I don't really want to give that up, though, the possibility for boosting her prayers to insane levels is the main concept behind this masterclass... However, I am trying to balance this by the price of these skills and specials. As mentioned before, I am working on the assumption that a strong can get me 3 extra PPC. Is that reasonable?

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:46 pm 
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bluedragonfire wrote:
The odds of this happening are small, yes. It is basically mostly a flavour skill, but since it is quite potent if it does happen, I shouldn't get it for free.

They opponent does not have to sing three posts, though. The song of the opponent would not count as a separate prayer, but add to Musalis' current prayer, or her next prayer if she isn't singing right now. So if Musalis uses three posts to pray, and the opponent sings one post for some strange reason, Musalis would have a prayer worth four posts.

[Ok. I didn't have a problem w/ it. It just seemed...an uncommon case.]

I've been making these skills and specials on the rough basis that getting three posts worth of prayer is roughly worth a strong. But I'd be happy to get it for a medium. =D

[See below about how I see the PPC thing.]

With her current bible, Musalis can use 1 prayer on the first page of a battle, and 2 on each other page. On any page where she has used up those uses, she could finish another prayer by using this skill. So she could get 2 prayers on page 1 or 3 prayers on any of the other pages.

Now, currently she wouldn't have any use for this, since prayers take time to get to a decent size. However, with some of the other skills I proposed here, she will eventually be able to pray a bit faster, making it possible to that she might want to make more prayers on a page than her bible currently allows.

[I see. Seems fine, then. But does getting that extra prayer in detract from your prayer limit for the next page?]

Ah, no, the doubling effect was only meant for the one post where the special is used. So the post where this special was used would add 2 to her prayer post count instead of 1.

[Cool.]

Hmm... I was thinking of, for example, focusing Concussion into a tight beam. That should decrease the affected area drastically, and so increase the effect quite a bit too. That's the only area effect boon I currently have, so how useful this skill is would depend on what other boon I'd get in the future.

[We can quibble about the ratio later but, so long as you see enough application for it, there's nothing wrong here.]

I don't really want to give that up, though, the possibility for boosting her prayers to insane levels is the main concept behind this masterclass... However, I am trying to balance this by the price of these skills and specials. As mentioned before, I am working on the assumption that a strong can get me 3 extra PPC. Is that reasonable?

[I don't think so. Prayers are considered rather powerful for the prospective "rank". If you stack a medium + strong skill to increase your PPC bonus to ~5, you'll get over a page's worth of prayer for just 2 posts. That's just too OP. Instead of of just adding post counts, what if you have a central skill that works as a ratio for your prayer posts? You could then augment that skill later to tilt the scale more in your favor. Allow me to give an example:]

[For every X posts Musalis prays, her PPC is given an additional bonus of Y.]

[While it isn't great on the surface, I would allow you to toss more skills into the "pool" to better the ratio. Once we decide on some base (let's say 4:1, just for the sake of argument), you could gradually enhance it to be 4:2, 3:1, 3:2, or even 2:1. This addresses my primary concern w/ this class proposition; the ability to get a massive prayer for only 1 post of work. (Or, if you stick to the strict math, you could get "instant" prayers by just praying for 0 posts and adding on all N of your PPC-boosting skills. That's a hack I can't allow). With my proposed modification, you can work towards more efficient prayers w/o the "stacking" mechanic becoming a problem.]



What do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:53 pm 
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leboyX wrote:

[I see. Seems fine, then. But does getting that extra prayer in detract from your prayer limit for the next page?]


No, it just adds another prayer I can make.

leboyX wrote:
[I don't think so. Prayers are considered rather powerful for the prospective "rank". If you stack a medium + strong skill to increase your PPC bonus to ~5, you'll get over a page's worth of prayer for just 2 posts. That's just too OP.]


A medium and a strong skill that boost my PPC bonus to +5 would be completely overpowered, yes, as I could use it for every prayer. However, I was talking about +3 PPC for a strong over the course of the entire battle.

I could still get to +5 PPC in two posts, but I'd have to use a one-use strong special and a one-use medium special. A strong with just one use is pretty much guaranteed to give a spectacular effect anyway. Consider the combined power of two arc-slashes. Is an extra 5 PPC really so much more powerful than unleashing a one-use strong and a one-use medium in consecutive posts?

leboyX wrote:

[Instead of of just adding post counts, what if you have a central skill that works as a ratio for your prayer posts? You could then augment that skill later to tilt the scale more in your favor. Allow me to give an example:]

[For every X posts Musalis prays, her PPC is given an additional bonus of Y.]

[While it isn't great on the surface, I would allow you to toss more skills into the "pool" to better the ratio. Once we decide on some base (let's say 4:1, just for the sake of argument), you could gradually enhance it to be 4:2, 3:1, 3:2, or even 2:1. This addresses my primary concern w/ this class proposition; the ability to get a massive prayer for only 1 post of work.]



There are two problems I have with this.

First, I fell it's just... boring. I like the ideas of using several different ways to add to my PPC-count. It both grants me more flexibility, and gives the entire system more character.

Second: I'm not sure how the ratios would go. Let's assume starting with 4:1, which would be... a strong, maybe? Now, the next strong I pay on this would boost this to 2:1 (assuming it's worth as much as the first one). What after that?

leboyX wrote:

[(Or, if you stick to the strict math, you could get "instant" prayers by just praying for 0 posts and adding on all N of your PPC-boosting skills. That's a hack I can't allow). With my proposed modification, you can work towards more efficient prayers w/o the "stacking" mechanic becoming a problem.]


Wait - you're concerned that I can get instant prayers, but you also liked my idea for an explicit instant-prayer skill. What's up with that? Are instant prayers okay or not?

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:00 pm 
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bluedragonfire wrote:
leboyX wrote:
[b]
leboyX wrote:
[color=blue][b]
[(Or, if you stick to the strict math, you could get "instant" prayers by just praying for 0 posts and adding on all N of your PPC-boosting skills. That's a hack I can't allow). With my proposed modification, you can work towards more efficient prayers w/o the "stacking" mechanic becoming a problem.]


Wait - you're concerned that I can get instant prayers, but you also liked my idea for an explicit instant-prayer skill. What's up with that? Are instant prayers okay or not?



They aren't. He's saying that if you did it your way, you could get instant prayers. With his way, you can't.

As an alternative, why not have a prayer requirement before you can use the special to enhance the post? Something like.. "This adds 2 'posts' of strength to a prayer that is already at least 2 posts." ?

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:25 pm 
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bluedragonfire wrote:
A medium and a strong skill that boost my PPC bonus to +5 would be completely overpowered, yes, as I could use it for every prayer. However, I was talking about +3 PPC for a strong over the course of the entire battle.

I could still get to +5 PPC in two posts, but I'd have to use a one-use strong special and a one-use medium special. A strong with just one use is pretty much guaranteed to give a spectacular effect anyway. Consider the combined power of two arc-slashes. Is an extra 5 PPC really so much more powerful than unleashing a one-use strong and a one-use medium in consecutive posts?

[Very well. I see your point. The only saving grace of this is the "one-off" nature of the ability. Keep that in mind. It should be noted, too, that you can never stack multiple of these specials on top of each other due to the "single-special-per-post" rule. While there are exceptions sometimes (esp. in the case of 2vX), you're not gonna' have everybody allowing you to do that.]

[Furthermore, even with the one-off mechanic, there's nothing stopping you from coming into battle and dumping some monster of a prayer on post...2? That's like Jaedin letting loose with two arc-slashes on turn 2. It's a lot for an opponent to swallow, and god-posts involve a lot of character control and outside influence, which is what makes them higher from w/in their "tier" than other things. I know Musalis isn't really the "kill first, ask questions later" type, but I think the point still stands.]


There are two problems I have with this.

First, I fell it's just... boring. I like the ideas of using several different ways to add to my PPC-count. It both grants me more flexibility, and gives the entire system more character.

["Body", "character", and "excitement" need to be somehow balance w/ fairness. See below for what I mean about the abuse of PPC-boosting traits.]

Second: I'm not sure how the ratios would go. Let's assume starting with 4:1, which would be... a strong, maybe? Now, the next strong I pay on this would boost this to 2:1 (assuming it's worth as much as the first one). What after that?

[No matter what, there will be a cap on how high you can go. If, somehow you concoct some 1+ page of prayer (which isn't so tough to do if you're boosting up), Ochre might as well come down, turn your opponent into a dinner bell and ring it for you. There is a point beyond which any prayer made will just too OP. There will have to be a "cap" somewhere.]

Wait - you're concerned that I can get instant prayers, but you also liked my idea for an explicit instant-prayer skill. What's up with that? Are instant prayers okay or not?

[I'm concerned that you could get infinite instant prayers. One-off is fine. But if you have skills that boost your prayers implicitly (not using my proposed ratios), you have an automatic addition of X PPC to all prayers. So, on page two, you could go "I pray for 0 posts and it's treated like a 3+ prayer". And you could do that twice. For free. (Also, keep in mind you're going to drive your god-mod crazy if you pray all the time, which is something I hope to address in the patch). That won't fly.]

[Will these one-offs only be available for use when you end a prayer, or do you want to pop them throughout the prayer? (The right answer here is "I want to use them at the end of a prayer, thus limiting me to one-use of a PPC-boosting ability per prayer". Otherwise, gargantuan prayers will be easily attainable).]



Like I said, this current system hinges on the "one-off" limitation. I can...come to terms with PPC-boosting abilities, esp. if they're one use. But there can't be stacking of these things. If a medium gets you a 2 PPC boost, you could just crack a few of those into your prayers and unleash the kitchen sink. If stacking comes into play, you'll be rolling over other characters far too easily.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:57 am 
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leboyX wrote:
[Furthermore, even with the one-off mechanic, there's nothing stopping you from coming into battle and dumping some monster of a prayer on post...2? That's like Jaedin letting loose with two arc-slashes on turn 2. It's a lot for an opponent to swallow, and god-posts involve a lot of character control and outside influence, which is what makes them higher from w/in their "tier" than other things. I know Musalis isn't really the "kill first, ask questions later" type, but I think the point still stands.]

Yes, but anybody with a one-use strong special can misuse it the same way. That's not a question of how the special works, or how powerful it is, but rather what is normal/accepted in our battles.


leboyX wrote:
[Very well. I see your point. The only saving grace of this is the "one-off" nature of the ability. Keep that in mind. It should be noted, too, that you can never stack multiple of these specials on top of each other due to the "single-special-per-post" rule. While there are exceptions sometimes (esp. in the case of 2vX), you're not gonna' have everybody allowing you to do that.]


You can use 2 specials in the post in 2vX? I've never heard of that before.


leboyX wrote:
[I'm concerned that you could get infinite instant prayers. One-off is fine. But if you have skills that boost your prayers implicitly (not using my proposed ratios), you have an automatic addition of X PPC to all prayers. So, on page two, you could go "I pray for 0 posts and it's treated like a 3+ prayer". And you could do that twice. For free. (Also, keep in mind you're going to drive your god-mod crazy if you pray all the time, which is something I hope to address in the patch). That won't fly.]

Ah, yes, but you are mixing up my skills and my specials. I am far from suggesting a skill that would add 3 PPC to each prayer. The skill have have proposed adds 1 PPC to each prayer, and costs a strong. Assuming I go only for skills that do this boost (which I won't), I'd need to use 3 strongs to boost me to +3 PPC for each prayer. Which... well, anybody who uses three strong skills that stack will get insanely powerful in that area. (I also would have no problem changing that skill to the proposed 1 extra every 4 posts, if I can have specials in addition)

leboyX wrote:
[Will these one-offs only be available for use when you end a prayer, or do you want to pop them throughout the prayer? (The right answer here is "I want to use them at the end of a prayer, thus limiting me to one-use of a PPC-boosting ability per prayer". Otherwise, gargantuan prayers will be easily attainable).]


Hmm... I currently only plan to make one single-use PPC boosting special, which is Earlier Prayer. If I ever make another one (which I don't think I will, for as I stated I like different ways to boost PPC), it couldn't possibly stack with Earlier Prayer, since the former one is instant, so I don't get another post to extend the prayer. I have no problem with any future PPC-bombs to have similar limitation (such as only being usable to end prayers)

But I would still get to use several instances of, for example, Effective Praying in a single prayer, right?

I want to stack my PPC boosting effects. I don't want multiple one-off boost a lot instantly effects.



As for huge prayers... yes, those will become more easily attainable (they were already possible; just pray for the first two and a half pages, in the hopes that it when the prayer hits it will instantly win you the battle). If I get all the skills and specials I mentioned so far, I could do the same in only two pages. And then pop another prayer the very next post. It would be quite amazing. But it would also take me several years to earn enough skills and specials to get to that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:43 pm 
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bluedragonfire wrote:
You can use 2 specials in the post in 2vX? I've never heard of that before.
[Always with the consent of the opposing party.]

Hmm... I currently only plan to make one single-use PPC boosting special, which is Earlier Prayer. If I ever make another one (which I don't think I will, for as I stated I like different ways to boost PPC), it couldn't possibly stack with Earlier Prayer, since the former one is instant, so I don't get another post to extend the prayer. I have no problem with any future PPC-bombs to have similar limitation (such as only being usable to end prayers)

But I would still get to use several instances of, for example, Effective Praying in a single prayer, right?

[The underlined portions contradict. One says you're fine w/ only using PPC-boosting specials at the end of a prayer, while the other asks if you can use multiple of them in the middle of a prayer. I support the former, not the latter. There is too much power in firing off multiple PPC-boosts in a single prayer. Since finishing a prayer is like a special, you'd basically be storing up multiple instances into a single prayer.]

I want to stack my PPC boosting effects. I don't want multiple one-off boost a lot instantly effects.

[I understand you want them to stack. But you've gotta' see just how powerful stacking can be, and how easily it can become too powerful. You can't keep bolting on more PPC to a single prayer like a Christmas tree w/ ornaments - it'll get out of hand way too fast.]



As for huge prayers... yes, those will become more easily attainable (they were already possible; just pray for the first two and a half pages, in the hopes that it when the prayer hits it will instantly win you the battle). If I get all the skills and specials I mentioned so far, I could do the same in only two pages. And then pop another prayer the very next post. It would be quite amazing. But it would also take me several years to earn enough skills and specials to get to that point.

[I'm not afraid of big prayers - your master class should make that easier to do. And I hope I've made it clear I'm not against that. What I am against is reaching super-high peaks in power for very little effort or very fast spin-up time.]

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Perhaps I'm wrong... but the gimmick with priests is that they can't get specials. They get boons which are presented to them in PM from a moderator. I only say this because a lot of these seem to be very... special-like.

Granted, a lot of these could be activated skills... yeah... But there has always been a drive to keep activated skills limited.

I suppose I don't have any problem with increasing your PPC each post to two... But I would think that would be the full extent of your master class. Yes, it could produce some righteous prayers (pun intended), but that would prevent the priest from using any boons until their current prayer is complete.

I mean, you can't really call upon the power of your god (a boon) while ASKING for the power of your god (prayer)... right?

That's MY overall opinion of what you should do. I mean, following the "I can't boon while praying" logic, it becomes significantly more fair. If you can survive against a person actively trying to kill you without using a boon for two pages, you deserve that 15 post prayer.

The biggest issue at hand is how many activated skills you're looking to get. If I were a mod, I would say "pick two" and we'll begin working on it.... I used to be a pretty harsh mod though. <3

My suggestions of the skills for this character would be... One activated skill to call upon a previous prayer grant (even from past battles) for a strong, 1x per battle, though at a moderately weaker strength... And an activated medium skill that did something else.

Additionally, I think that my suggested master class (above) could be used in conjunction with my suggested skills.

My full thoughts:

The Chosen of Ochre: This is the masterclass for Musalis, the Priestess. Having spent years in Ochres service, she has formed a strong bond with her God, which allows her to wield his gifts with more finesse and versatility. Her connection with Ochre is beyond that of a common priest. Her prayers to Ochre draw more power than before, each post counting as if she had been praying for twice as long.

Some addendums:

1. She also receives perfect knowledge of what the prayer does.
2. She also has the ability to slightly influence the boons granted to her. This allows her to make slight edits to the boons suggested to her, so long as her god approves.
3. She also becomes cloaked in Ochre's protection which increases the fortitude of her body. She is no longer weak to blunt damage and resists slashing damage to a moderate extent.
4. Further, Ochre's blessing has given her flesh again. She is no longer a skeleton, though she retains all attributes of such. Her form is now that of a beautiful, young woman. [Insert description]
5. She now remembers her prayers by heart, allowing her to pray even after she loses her bible, albeit at a weakened level.
6. She now cannot receive a "backfired" prayer from Ochre, as the god does not want to harm his most loyal believer. Although, she can still have her prayer request denied by the divine.

For your master class, I would suggest choosing two of the above to add ON TOP of the augment granting you two posts of prayer per one post. However, I want to stand by the fact that you CAN'T use boons while actively praying.


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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:07 pm 
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I thought we were limited to only having one activated skill like... Ever? <.< or is this just a special case since it's a master class?

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:21 pm 
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There's no written rule anywhere regarding activated skills. There probably should be... But generally, yes, that has always been the case.

I'd probably be content with just ONE activated skill for our friend here... but, yeah, I could also justify (MAYBE) making an exception for priests, since they can't choose their own boons anyways, you know?

But, hell, I'm not a mod. :P This is TOTALLY Khan's, Leboy's, and NTW's lane.

Edit: Hmm. Odd. I lied. Question 25 on the FAQs... However, it also dictates you can (typically) only have one. Verbatim.


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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:49 pm 
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Oh dear Ochre not again... every time a mod gets close to accepting this masterclass, another comes and refuses to accept one of the fundamental aspects of it. First over PM to prepare for the PQ, then here... I've gone through this four times already. Why do you have to look at this one at a time? I don't mind reworking it. I just hate having to rework it over, and over, and over, and over and over and over and over and over and ARRRGGH!

----

of_shattered_origins wrote:
Perhaps I'm wrong... but the gimmick with priests is that they can't get specials. They get boons which are presented to them in PM from a moderator. I only say this because a lot of these seem to be very... special-like.


Yes. The masterclass I proposed is acting like a catalyst, allowing her to do things she otherwise could never do. You'll notice that the masterclass by itself does very little except allowing her to do other things.

of_shattered_origins wrote:
Granted, a lot of these could be activated skills... yeah... But there has always been a drive to keep activated skills limited.


One activated skill per character, if I recall correctly... which is why I've been saving mine.

of_shattered_origins wrote:
I suppose I don't have any problem with increasing your PPC each post to two... But I would think that would be the full extent of your master class.


Ok... this is a lot stronger than what I am proposing. You are offering me, instantly, twice as powerful prayers, while my propositions only increase it slightly (in comparison), and I have to pay (a lot) for them.

I'm not even going to comment on this, because I am reasonably sure that leboyX will object.

of_shattered_origins wrote:
I mean, you can't really call upon the power of your god (a boon) while ASKING for the power of your god (prayer)... right?


... so far, I've always been able to use boons while praying. This has never been a problem. Why would the masterclass suddenly prevent me from doing this?

of_shattered_origins wrote:
That's MY overall opinion of what you should do. I mean, following the "I can't boon while praying" logic, it becomes significantly more fair. If you can survive against a person actively trying to kill you without using a boon for two pages, you deserve that 15 post prayer.


I can get a 15-post prayer in two pages without this masterclass. And I can use boons while doing so.


---


leboyX wrote:
Hmm... I currently only plan to make one single-use PPC boosting special, which is Earlier Prayer. If I ever make another one (which I don't think I will, for as I stated I like different ways to boost PPC), it couldn't possibly stack with Earlier Prayer, since the former one is instant, so I don't get another post to extend the prayer. I have no problem with any future PPC-bombs to have similar limitation (such as only being usable to end prayers)

But I would still get to use several instances of, for example, Effective Praying in a single prayer, right?

[The underlined portions contradict. One says you're fine w/ only using PPC-boosting specials at the end of a prayer, while the other asks if you can use multiple of them in the middle of a prayer. I support the former, not the latter. There is too much power in firing off multiple PPC-boosts in a single prayer. Since finishing a prayer is like a special, you'd basically be storing up multiple instances into a single prayer.]


The difference is how effective they are. A one-off boost special would increase the PPC of a prayer by 3. Three uses Effective praying would increase the PPC of the prayer by 3 (and use up three posts, so the prayer would have to be at least 3 posts long). If I can't stack small boosts, then I am encouraged to get large boosts, because otherwise I can only boost each of my prayers a tiny bit.


And yes, prayers are storing up several posts worth of effort into a single effect. That is the concept behind them. My masterclass would only allow me to add a bit to that with by adding the effects of skills and specials into the pool. I can't boost prayers in any other way unless I change how prayers work. (well... I could, but that idea was rejected by other mods)

leboyX wrote:
I want to stack my PPC boosting effects. I don't want multiple one-off boost a lot instantly effects.

[I understand you want them to stack. But you've gotta' see just how powerful stacking can be, and how easily it can become too powerful. You can't keep bolting on more PPC to a single prayer like a Christmas tree w/ ornaments - it'll get out of hand way too fast.]


I do see how it can become very powerful, but it would only cost me an insane amount of skills to get there. You proposed a 2:1 ratio for prayers to gain more PPC (and of_shattered_origins even proposed 1:1). My effective ratios would be a lot smaller than that, unless I spend the equivalence of several powerful skills/specials on this.

The only other difference is that my prososed system is more flexible. I can boost some prayers a lot, but that would leave me without a way to boost my other prayers. I can boost small prayers to medium prayers easier, and it gets a lot harder for me to boost large prayers to huge prayers. (an 8-post prayer is instantly a 12-post prayer for 2:1, and a 16-post prayer with 1:1. With my system (and all of the currently proposed skills and specials, which would cost me a lot), I could manage to boost 8 to 12, but as stated it would leave me without a way to effectively boost other prayers; a 2:1 ratio could boost two 8-post prayers to 12-post prayers in the same battle)

leboyX wrote:
[I'm not afraid of big prayers - your master class should make that easier to do. And I hope I've made it clear I'm not against that. What I am against is reaching super-high peaks in power for very little effort or very fast spin-up time.]


I won't reach super-high peaks of power like with without spending several powerful skills worth of specials. I probably won't even reach extreme prayers at all, in contrast to your proposed systems, where every prayer with a lot of posts becomes extreme. What I can reach is medium prayers with little time spent praying.

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