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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:16 am 
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> 1. I'm not a mod. My ideas mean very little in the grand scheme of
> things. It matters what LBX, NTW, and Khan think.
>
> 2. If you're looking to get specials for your character, as what seems
> to be the case, you'll have to stay within the examples of the master
> classes given in the "Classes" section. It dictates that an "Agility
> Class" (such as the Priest) can learn up to medium spells from a
> spellcasting school. However, these would cost one level higher to
> obtain.
>
> As you are attempting to do something similar (ie: learning specials), I
> imagine you would be permitted to learn UP TO specials of a "medium"
> strength or lower for regular cost. If the moderators wanted to be
> cruel, they could just throw your master class under that shroud and
> call it done. Instead, they are trying to help you and I, personally,
> find you being someone abrasive to the assistance.
>
> At a certain point you must accept the decision of Leboy and move along.
> The aim is to make both of you unhappy with what was agreed upon.
>
> 3. Yes, FAQ question 25.
>
> 4. Yes, it is a lot stronger when implemented in your version of the
> world. However, you're taking what I said out of context. I specifically
> mentioned that this would be fair so long as you cannot use boons while
> praying. Which will continue on to...
>
> 5. Honestly, it shouldn't "suddenly" prevent you. I don't think you
> should have been able to use boons and pray at the same time in the
> first place-- for two reasons. First, it doesn't make sense to be asking
> the divine for assistance while asking for more. "Hey, Ochre, I need
> some stuff to kill some bad guys, help me help me help me-- by the way,
> I need this too [Boon used, 1x left]". Secondly, it has to be agreed on
> by the other party for you to use two abilities in the same post.
> Praying, in essence, is a class ability. I cannot use telekinesis and a
> spell in the same post and neither can a berserker use a rage and a
> special in the same post; how can you use a boon while praying?
>
> However, I digress from the point here.
>
> My suggestion works if the above rules are followed. Priests may be a
> special case. It is not my job to decide.
>
> 6. My thought was for priests in general. Again. Context. Yes, you would
> be able to reach 15 posts of prayer in one page and you'd be able to use
> boons while doing so. Ridiculously OP. The mods would crush souls if I
> suggested that.
>
> I offer an alternative... where a priest can try and pray for a page
> without boons... and suffer the wrath of the other character unleashing
> HELL since the priest isn't able to use any of their other special
> abilities.


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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:59 am 
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of_shattered_origins wrote:
>
> 5. Honestly, it shouldn't "suddenly" prevent you. I don't think you
> should have been able to use boons and pray at the same time in the
> first place-- for two reasons. First, it doesn't make sense to be asking
> the divine for assistance while asking for more. "Hey, Ochre, I need
> some stuff to kill some bad guys, help me help me help me-- by the way,
> I need this too [Boon used, 1x left]". Secondly, it has to be agreed on
> by the other party for you to use two abilities in the same post.
> Praying, in essence, is a class ability. I cannot use telekinesis and a
> spell in the same post and neither can a berserker use a rage and a
> special in the same post; how can you use a boon while praying?


We should probably talk about this, actually. I agree with OsO - Priests shouldn't be able to pray and use boons at the same time. All it takes to 'Pray' is typing.. which you're already doing anyways to post. So they're getting substantial help at no cost if they can do it with no detriment at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:14 am 
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Quote:
Master ClassSome random adventurer wrote:It all became easier.I'm not sure when... and I'm not sure how. But it did.What was once time consuming and pain-staking has now become second nature to me. Some would say I've mastered martial-arts... But somehow, I feel as though I've just gotten started.~Qui Gong Ming, Shaolin Martial-ArtistFew and far between, Master Classes are attained by a special means, either by the use of a medal, or an event of some kind. They can do a wide variety of things... perhaps augmenting your natural talents or giving you a bonus from a different, but similar, class. They can also be used to add new mechanics to a character or even bend certain rules that would otherwise be untouchable with normal skills. They can also completely revolutionize your character, perhaps by turning a living creature completely undead without any of the pitfalls. Everything is subject to approval by the panel of mods.While only a Bronze medal is needed, using a higher-grade medal will result in extra gold for that character. A Silver medal will give 5 additional gold and a Gold medal will offer 10.Each person masters their class in their own way. While one martial-artist might hone their melee skills to that of perfection, another might find mastery in a delicate balance between ranged and close combat.While getting to choose your own, unique mastery, this doesn't come without rules. Clearly, a berserker that has no affiliation with the arcane would have difficulty understanding and using it, which would mean that their spells are naturally weaker than a TRUE wizards and, then, they might not be able to understand the more complex spells. Or a psionicist that has no prior melee ability wouldn't be nearly as skilled as a fighter would be.Master Classes are subject, but not limited to, these rules:A Master Class can yield up to 6 weak attribute increases, 3 medium increases, 1 strong and 1 medium increase, or any other combination that can be thought of.1. Fighter Classes may take on the ability to cast spells, but they will only ever be able to cast 'weak' spells, and all spells must be custom (thus costing a medium).2. Caster Classes may take on the ability to use specials, but they will only ever be 'weak' in strength, but will cost 3 gold as well as a weak special. 3. Summoners may not take on the ability to cast spells, but may take on the ability to create up to medium strength specials at an increased cost.4. Agility Classes may take on the ability to cast spells, but they will only ever be able to cast (up to) 'medium' spells, and all spells must be custom (thus costing more).5. One type of class unique skills (such as Ki attacks or Critical Strike skills) may be attained at a regular cost. Each Master Class is subject to approval by almost every moderator before use.


Personally I would see a priest as more of a caster in this instance enabling only weak specials. I would allow medium specials but at a greater cost like custom spells. That is just from a cursory look at your class, I will have a better look when my lunch break comes around today. Don't be too indignant, mods have to look at things like this individually because a different mod notices different things. Masterclasses also need to get the final tick from more than a single mod anyway.

I also believe there should be restrictions on boon use during prayers. Not stop it completely but have restrictions. Using you as an example you sing in order to pray, but using say sirens talent requires your voice effectively stopping your prayer to use it. Beserkers can use a rage and a special in the same post though because rages can be made as skills. But I cant use ki fist while charging ki strike.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:27 am 
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Activated skills would count as the use of a special ability, wouldn't they?

I can't say for sure... But I don't think I've ever activated SDS then cast a spell the same post.


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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:30 am 
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Pretty sure the rules always were you can use as many skills as you want in a post but only 1 spell or special which is why you only get one active skill in the first place you you can't super boost your character in a post using them

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:34 am 
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bluedragonfire wrote:
Oh dear Ochre not again... every time a mod gets close to accepting this masterclass, another comes and refuses to accept one of the fundamental aspects of it. First over PM to prepare for the PQ, then here... I've gone through this four times already. Why do you have to look at this one at a time? I don't mind reworking it. I just hate having to rework it over, and over, and over, and over and over and over and over and over and ARRRGGH!


For a couple months now it has just been one moderator. However, it is stated in the Class section pertaining to the Master classes that 'Each Master Class is subject to approval by almost every moderator before use.' Now that more of us are here, it's something you're going to have to accept that the rest of us look at it. And as far as I'm concerned, you should not be so surprised some of us are having an issue with any specials or skills that effect prayers. We are here to make sure things don't get over-powered, as this is how I'm seeing it:

Quote:
Ochre's favor
Musalis prayers count more in the eyes of Ochre since she is his trusted follower
(this adds 1 extra post per prayer. The post is add when the prayer is started)
(Skilll, strong)

The enemy's song
If Musalis opponent for any reasons sings during a post, that post counts as a post Musalis is praying.
(Skill, weak)

Earlier song
Musalis prays a lot when she is not fighting but just living her normal life. She can call upon one of these previous prayers in battle to help her.
(This acts as an instant prayer worth 3 posts (unless other skill/special add to that), without Musalis having to pray.)
(Special, strong, 1x)

An extra chance for help
Just when she couldn't get another prayer to her God, Musalis can call upon her devotion to Ochre and get the prayer through anyway.
(the prayer effected by this doesn't count towards the ones Musalis is allowed due to her bible)
(Special, medium, 1x)

Effective praying
Musalis can double the effectiveness of her praying, allowing her to gain two posts for praying the post she is using this skill.
(Special, Strong, 3x)



Post 1 - Praying, Ochre's favor in effect (Prayer Power:1+1)
Post 2 - Praying, Effective praying (2x left) (Prayer Power: 2+2)
Post 3 - Earlier song (0x left) (Prayer Power: 2(cause we didn't pray)+5)
Post 4 - Whistle like a flute (Prayer Power: 3+5)
Post 5 - Whistle like a flute (Prayer Power: 4+5)
*cash in on prayer with PP being 9*

Post 6 - Praying, Ochre's favor in effect (Prayer Power:1+1)
Post 7 - Praying, Effective praying (1x left) (Prayer Power:2+2)
*cash in on prayer with PP being 4*

This is an issue. I do not like the stacking of these PPC skills/specials because, as Leboy said, you would roll over everyone else quite easily. So you are going to need to work with us to change this until it is acceptable.

Quote:
An extra chance for help
Just when she couldn't get another prayer to her God, Musalis can call upon her devotion to Ochre and get the prayer through anyway.
(the prayer effected by this doesn't count towards the ones Musalis is allowed due to her bible)
(Special, medium, 1x)

My issue with this is the fact you're trying to not pay the 20 gold to get to the Stage 3 bible in a way.

Also, I agree with Khan about your class. I would lean more towards putting you into the 'Caster' class (because you're wanting to learn specials, not spells, and priests are different than the rest of the agility classes in this way) of the Master class section which states:
Quote:
Caster Classes may take on the ability to use specials, but they will only ever be 'weak' in strength, but will cost 3 gold as well as a weak special.

This of course changes things with what you're trying to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:39 am 
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Khan Novaneau wrote:
Pretty sure the rules always were you can use as many skills as you want in a post but only 1 spell or special which is why you only get one active skill in the first place you you can't super boost your character in a post using them


**Edit** Another bit a read through during lunch and my brain is melting looking at what your proposing. I can see the future skills and specials you want to get that you haven't posted up here and I can see how they mesh with the ones you are showing and its not good balance wise. I'll post in detail when I'm hone and have an actual computer and not a phone.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:44 am 
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Quote:
Post 1 - Praying, Ochre's favor in effect (Prayer Power:1+1)
Post 2 - Praying, Effective praying (2x left) (Prayer Power: 2+2)
Post 3 - Earlier song (0x left) (Prayer Power: 2(cause we didn't pray)+5)
Post 4 - Whistle like a flute (Prayer Power: 3+5)
Post 5 - Whistle like a flute (Prayer Power: 4+5)
*cash in on prayer with PP being 9*


Gets worse...
Post 1 -Ochre's Favor and Effective Praying (Prayer Power: 1+1+1)
Post 2 - Earlier Song (Prayer Power: 3 + 3)
Post 3 - Prayer, effective Praying (Prayer Power: 6 + 2)
On post 3 you now have a 8 Post Prayer... Post 3!!!

That's completely insane. if you kept praying till the end of page 1 you would have a 13 post Prayer at the end of the first page.


But none of this really matters because you aren't going to get any of the specials or ability right this moment. You will have to earn them 1 by 1 from battles etc and get each approved individually at a later date.


What exactly are you trying to get approved for the initial Master Class though, because it is hard to tell with the way you have set every thing out. Upon the approval of this masterclass what exactly will you be taking away with you to add to your character. Look at NTW's master class being approved. When creating a master class you get:

Quote:
A Master Class can yield up to 6 weak attribute increases, 3 medium increases, 1 strong and 1 medium increase, or any other combination that can be thought of.

1. Fighter Classes may take on the ability to cast spells, but they will only ever be able to cast 'weak' spells, and all spells must be custom (thus costing a medium).
2. Caster Classes may take on the ability to use specials, but they will only ever be 'weak' in strength, but will cost 3 gold as well as a weak special.
3. Summoners may not take on the ability to cast spells, but may take on the ability to create up to medium strength specials at an increased cost.
4. Agility Classes may take on the ability to cast spells, but they will only ever be able to cast (up to) 'medium' spells, and all spells must be custom (thus costing more).
5. One type of class unique skills (such as Ki attacks or Critical Strike skills) may be attained at a regular cost.


So what exactly is your exact master class we can deal with your future abilities when they actually need to be approved.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:52 am 
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Actually she is not limited to the things you quoted from the Class page. Those are the examples of what you can obtain if you were to 'cross-class' in a way. She is allowed to build further upon her Priest class in a way similar to Jodai did, if she wishes. It just depends on her answer to your question, which I do think is something we should clarify so that we can help guide this discussion in the right direction.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:55 am 
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I was more focused on the first line of that.

Quote:
A Master Class can yield up to 6 weak attribute increases, 3 medium increases, 1 strong and 1 medium increase, or any other combination that can be thought of.


Like with yours where you selected a Strong and a Medium increase.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:57 am 
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Then maybe next time quote just that, or it's open to misinterpretation like I did.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:00 am 
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Sorry Ma'am. :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:11 am 
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(answers in reverse order of when the posts above were posted)
(about whether boons and prayers can be used in the same post, that is a question about the priest class in general, not this masterclass. I'll move that part of the discussion to the patch thread)


Khan Novaneau wrote:
So what exactly is your exact master class we can deal with your future abilities when they actually need to be approved.


My masterclass, as I proposed it, is the following:

Quote:
The Chosen of Ochre
This is the masterclass for Musalis, the Priestess. Having spent years in Ochres service, she has formed a strong bond with her God, which allows her to wield his gifts with more power, finesse and versatility that is beyond common priest. Musalis can get skills and specials that explicitly change or enhance her praying and the effect of her boons. Upon having a prayer granted, she also receives perfect knowledge of what the prayer does.


(so it's supposed to be a strong increase which acts like a catalyst, and a medium increase which grants me the knowledge thing)

Anything else I proposed here would have to be bought with skills/specials at a later point, though I would probably use anything I have saved up to buy masterclass related things once the masterclass is accepted.

The reason I have shown so many examples here is both for the mods to get an idea of what kinds of skills and specials I may later get that use the options the masterclass opens for me, and for me to get an idea of what kind of skills and specials like that would be acceptable. Since this masterclass main feature is enabling me to get other things, it is important that we are on the same page about what kind of things this enables me to get. Just getting the masterclass accepted wouldn't help me if none of the skills and specials I want to base on it are acceptable.



----



Khan Novaneau wrote:
Quote:
Post 1 - Praying, Ochre's favor in effect (Prayer Power:1+1)
Post 2 - Praying, Effective praying (2x left) (Prayer Power: 2+2)
Post 3 - Earlier song (0x left) (Prayer Power: 2(cause we didn't pray)+5)
Post 4 - Whistle like a flute (Prayer Power: 3+5)
Post 5 - Whistle like a flute (Prayer Power: 4+5)
*cash in on prayer with PP being 9*


Gets worse...
Post 1 -Ochre's Favor and Effective Praying (Prayer Power: 1+1+1)
Post 2 - Earlier Song (Prayer Power: 3 + 3)
Post 3 - Prayer, effective Praying (Prayer Power: 6 + 2)
On post 3 you now have a 8 Post Prayer... Post 3!!!


Okay, I may not have formulated Earlier Prayer completely clearly. The idea (exactly to avoid something like this) was that it is an instant, self-contained prayer. Meaning that it finishes instantly, so I can use it to add to another prayer, nor can I pray to add to it.



Nighttime Waters wrote:
For a couple months now it has just been one moderator. However, it is stated in the Class section pertaining to the Master classes that 'Each Master Class is subject to approval by almost every moderator before use.' Now that more of us are here, it's something you're going to have to accept that the rest of us look at it. And as far as I'm concerned, you should not be so surprised some of us are having an issue with any specials or skills that effect prayers. We are here to make sure things don't get over-powered.


I know, and I appreciate your work. I just had this masterclass basically accepted before DI died, after discussions with tDb and Yoz. Where I already once had to scrap my entire concept for the masterclass and completely rewrite it.

Nighttime Waters wrote:
Quote:
An extra chance for help
Just when she couldn't get another prayer to her God, Musalis can call upon her devotion to Ochre and get the prayer through anyway.
(the prayer effected by this doesn't count towards the ones Musalis is allowed due to her bible)
(Special, medium, 1x)

My issue with this is the fact you're trying to not pay the 20 gold to get to the Stage 3 bible in a way.

The main point about the stage 3 bible is that it makes prayers stronger, isn't it? This wouldn't do that. (otherwise, getting a stage 3 bible would be nearly useless, as you can't really ever make 3 decent prayers in a single page (unless you get something similar to this proposed masterclass))

Nighttime Waters wrote:
Also, I agree with Khan about your class. I would lean more towards putting you into the 'Caster' class (because you're wanting to learn specials, not spells, and priests are different than the rest of the agility classes in this way) of the Master class section which states:
Quote:
Caster Classes may take on the ability to use specials, but they will only ever be 'weak' in strength, but will cost 3 gold as well as a weak special.

This of course changes things with what you're trying to do.

Well... the specials I am proposing to get through the masterclass aren't like normal specials, since they don't actually allow me to do an action (jump into the air, make a special attack, do another action), but instead boost my prayers. Special is just the closest name to what I am going for here.

Anyway, I guess this isn't my decision. Tell me whether you as mods rule that priests count as caster classes in this regard, and if it is so, I'll try to see how that fits in with my ideas.

of_shattered_origins wrote:
> 1. I'm not a mod. My ideas mean very little in the grand scheme of
> things. It matters what LBX, NTW, and Khan think.

I did not know that. I thought you were still a mod.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:10 am 
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Quote:
Khan Novaneau wrote:
Quote:
Post 1 - Praying, Ochre's favor in effect (Prayer Power:1+1)
Post 2 - Praying, Effective praying (2x left) (Prayer Power: 2+2)
Post 3 - Earlier song (0x left) (Prayer Power: 2(cause we didn't pray)+5)
Post 4 - Whistle like a flute (Prayer Power: 3+5)
Post 5 - Whistle like a flute (Prayer Power: 4+5)
*cash in on prayer with PP being 9*


Gets worse...
Post 1 -Ochre's Favor and Effective Praying (Prayer Power: 1+1+1)
Post 2 - Earlier Song (Prayer Power: 3 + 3)
Post 3 - Prayer, effective Praying (Prayer Power: 6 + 2)
On post 3 you now have a 8 Post Prayer... Post 3!!!


Okay, I may not have formulated Earlier Prayer completely clearly. The idea (exactly to avoid something like this) was that it is an instant, self-contained prayer. Meaning that it finishes instantly, so I can use it to add to another prayer, nor can I pray to add to it.

This part is contradicting itself. I'm guessing you mean to say you cannot add it to another prayer?


Quote:
Nighttime Waters wrote:
For a couple months now it has just been one moderator. However, it is stated in the Class section pertaining to the Master classes that 'Each Master Class is subject to approval by almost every moderator before use.' Now that more of us are here, it's something you're going to have to accept that the rest of us look at it. And as far as I'm concerned, you should not be so surprised some of us are having an issue with any specials or skills that effect prayers. We are here to make sure things don't get over-powered.


I know, and I appreciate your work. I just had this masterclass basically accepted before DI died, after discussions with tDb and Yoz. Where I already once had to scrap my entire concept for the masterclass and completely rewrite it.

Well what you said on your last post on the first page sounded a bit frustrated, so I wanted to reach out and explain.


Quote:
Nighttime Waters wrote:
Quote:
An extra chance for help
Just when she couldn't get another prayer to her God, Musalis can call upon her devotion to Ochre and get the prayer through anyway.
(the prayer effected by this doesn't count towards the ones Musalis is allowed due to her bible)
(Special, medium, 1x)

My issue with this is the fact you're trying to not pay the 20 gold to get to the Stage 3 bible in a way.

The main point about the stage 3 bible is that it makes prayers stronger, isn't it? This wouldn't do that. (otherwise, getting a stage 3 bible would be nearly useless, as you can't really ever make 3 decent prayers in a single page (unless you get something similar to this proposed masterclass))

I wouldn't say that is the main point, as that applies to every 'advanced bible' you obtain. The main point of the third tier bible is to give you more prayers per page the longer you stay in battles. And you can make decent prayers if your master class ends up even remotely resembling what you're wanting.
Quote:
You can upgrade your book once more for an additional 20 gold and a medium skill, as you understand your god even more, allowing you to get 1 prayer in page 1, 2 prayers on page 2, and 3 prayers on the remaining pages. Praying with a more powerful bible will make prayers stronger.


Quote:
Nighttime Waters wrote:
Also, I agree with Khan about your class. I would lean more towards putting you into the 'Caster' class (because you're wanting to learn specials, not spells, and priests are different than the rest of the agility classes in this way) of the Master class section which states:
Quote:
Caster Classes may take on the ability to use specials, but they will only ever be 'weak' in strength, but will cost 3 gold as well as a weak special.

This of course changes things with what you're trying to do.

Well... the specials I am proposing to get through the masterclass aren't like normal specials, since they don't actually allow me to do an action (jump into the air, make a special attack, do another action), but instead boost my prayers. Special is just the closest name to what I am going for here.

Well as a Priest you have some issues. These aren't spells, so what we end up with is counting them as specials. Going off of the line on the Priest page that specifically states:
Quote:
A priest can only get skills, and never specials.


Really, this feels like activated skills, in a way, but we're only allowed one of those. I would honestly suggest that you work with the ratio augmentation of your prayer input into an activated skill like Leboy mentioned. You can get skills later that change the ratio.

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 Post subject: Re: Masterclass
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:20 am 
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I guess that means that I'm back...


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