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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:54 pm 
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That image of the battle mage was always what I had thought of when I was thinking of the class. I was looking at them more like shamans or the other battle hardy magic wielders than like the bookish wizards etc. After all, the mage literally drags the powers of the elements through and out of their own bodies on a regular basis, and as such I'd always thought of them portrayed as a much more natural-minded and instinctual class than the truly intellectual classes such as the psionicist or the wizard, hence the ability to fight on the level of an agility class, since the stress that casting puts on their bodies makes them stronger.

Due to this agility-class level constitution, it just seems weird that they would have problems fighting in agility armour, after all, while a mage is at 4 or above stress, they're basically an agility class. It's not really that important, I just think that it's jarring to allow mages to take agility-level skills in fighting easily and yet restrict them to the lowest form or armours, without the benefits that agility class armour provides.

Thinking about it, it's also a bit weird that there are no shields at all in the light armour section. Perhaps moving the small wooden shield down to the light armour category would be good, since it would allow people who wanted to use shields in their magic character through skills and custom abilities would be able to start with a shield if they so chose, and inevitably if their characters were going to be based on shields, the next thing up from the small wooden shield would be a custom shield...

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:31 pm 
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TBH when I started the original rework on the mage class that turned into what it is now I never once suggested the idea of giving them combat prowess. I was for the stress system, the elements system and the boost from other spell system. However once it reached a certain point choices kind of got taken away from me. I'm all for returning the mage to a tome wielding book dweller capable of casting epically powerful spells.

I think the reason they brought in the fitness was because of the word stress. Stress on the body from casting spells, so they brought fitness as a logical way to counteract that. I only used stress while creating because I hadn't thought of anything else at the time, a place keeper if you will. Simple fix, change stress to Elemental Feedback, remove the agility component all together. BK has started the creation of a new and improved caster class. I could look at thinking up a fighter and agility class to go with it.

Idea for agility class: SpellBlade: a hybrid spellcaster with agility, capable of sword fighting like a duellist but with a repertoire of arcane spells revolving around their equipment.
I'll create a Dummy system and post it up after work see what you all think. I'll try to think of something for a fight class too.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Stress on the body doesn't really equate to physical strength. Stamina and endurance, sure. But not the fortitude to run around toting whatever heavy objects you like.

As for the spell blade, it sounds like another class I've seen elsewhere. But its exact whereabouts don't come to mind right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:55 am 
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While reworking the mage class to be more of a tome using, intelligence based class is fine, if you did that you'd either have to give them a different bonus after removing the natural ability to fight at the level of an agility class. Stress, while an interesting unique mechanic, would then be a class-specific but only negative effect. Removing the positive bonus that stress supposedly gives the mage, in that while effectively silenced they can still fight better than other magic classes, stress just becomes a useless restriction, effectively turning the mage into an inferior elemental wizard, without the ability to use the laylines mechanic to make their spells interesting.

If the idea is that the class would be turned back into a basic magic class, I would recommend scrapping the stress mechanic and the agility bonus, and instead making an already existing mechanic for mages the core of the class; this would take the form of a revamp of what I'm going to call the "spell harmony" mechanic (unless someone has a better name for it) where a mage knowing spells powers up other related spells. Personally, I think that if this were to be made the core of the class, the list of which spells affect what could be rewritten so that fire spells could benefit not only fire spells, but also spells from the two other elemental books that weren't magically opposed to it (ie. Earth and Air, Water and Fire). Alternatively, in conjunction with this, another alternative for the main mechanic for mages could be combination spellcasting, where a mage could use a charge from two different spells to combine them into logical fusion of the two spells; this would be similar to the psionicist's augmented control, except it would be more adaptive.

For example, a mage could combine the spells Earth Jilt and Burst Touch together into one spell which would knock back the target a decent distance as well as causing minor blunt damage and moderate burning to the point of contact. This is a similar effect to that of fireball, which causes moderate burns and moderate knockback, but can be thrown instead of being contact based. The first spell would use one charge of each of Earth Jilt and Burst Touch which are both weak spells, while the second would use one charge of Fireball which is a medium spell; a roughly even charge exchange. To limit this combined spellcasting, either a shadow of the stress mechanic could be used whereby a mage cannot combine above 6 points of spell (which is a powerful with a medium or two strongs) or just make it so the mage cannot cast spells for the amount of time he would have had to wait before being able to cast again, which would be one turn of silence for a basic spell combination, but which would be up to four turns (one before, one during and two after) for casting a combination of charge spells like Landslide and Starfire.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:40 am 
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The stress is the negative to the unique ability of gaining bonuses in a spell from knowing other spells of the same element isn't it?
Mage spells were meant to be stronger than other caster spells strength for strength, and the stress system was designed to prevent constant spamming of high power spells in battle.
Quote:
Your idea while interesting would create some major balance issues I think. The first two combinations I thought of when I saw the fusion idea, was:

Razor Gale[S] + Star Fire.[S]
You know have an attack that comes from the four cardinal points and above... That's a little nuts.

Diamond Dust[P] + Whirlwind[M]
Razor blades spinning around the caster at high speed... Ouch

At lower levels it might work, but once a mage starts to gain more and more spells the combinations because increasing power to a point where it isn't really balanced any more.


But... I am for recreating the bonuses for the spells and expanding them all to other elements.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:46 am 
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What if you restricted the combination to 4 then? Strong + Weak or Medium + Medium? There are a massive number of mediums and weaks that would make interesting and situationally useful combinations, and that would potentially restrict people from using the extremely powerful Strong and Powerful level spells in combination spells.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:05 pm 
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Combining sounds good but seems way too powerful and complex.

What about a generic way to utilize the energy of another spell.
Quote:
- Weak Fire Energy -
Adds heat to a spell or slightly increase it's blast radius

- Medium Fire Energy -
Adds moderate heat to a spell or increase it's blast radius

- Strong Fire Energy -
Adds scolding heat to a spell or widely increase it's blast radius

- Powerful Fire Energy -
Adds extreme burning heat to a spell or massively increase it's blast radius


Quote:
- Weak Water Energy -
Adds cold to a spell or adds moisture to a spell

- Medium Water Energy -
Adds moderate cold or adds water to a spell

- Strong Water Energy -
Adds freezing cold or adds a large amount of water to a spell

- Powerful Water Energy -
Adds an extream freezing cold or adds a massive amount of water to a spell


Quote:
- Weak Air Energy -
Adds a slight shock to a spell or increases a spell's push back

- Medium Air Energy -
Adds a small shock to a spell or moderately increases a spell's push back

- Strong Air Energy -
Adds a shock to a spell or increases a spell's push back by a large amount

- Powerful Air Energy -
Adds a strong shock to a spell or massively increases a spell's push back

Quote:
- Weak Earth spell -
Adds small chunks of dust to a spell or slightly increases a spell's blunt force

- Medium Earth spell -
Adds small sharp stones to a spell or increases a spell's blunt force

- Strong Earth spell -
Adds sharp rocks to a spell or increases a spell's blunt force greatly

- Powerful Earth spell -
Adds large rocks to a spell or increases a spell's blunt force massively


Example: Mage casts water shot but also uses the energy of one use of Dirt Torrent meaning that the the spell now dose far more blunt force impact that it would usually have.

Obviously not all boosts would be beneficial, adding water or reducing the temperature of many fire spells would weaken them or adding blunt force to a cutting air attack would blunt the it.

This means every spell can be used in lots of different ways.

- Mach Gust -
The Mage fires a stream of wind that travels at a very fast speed toward their opponent. While low in damage (about that of a mild punch), this spell can be used several times.

+ Medium Fire Energy = a burning wind
+ Medium Water Energy = a freezing wind
+ Medium Earth Energy = a wind full of sharp stones

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:11 pm 
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I like that concept BK, simple and efficient and prevents ridiculously powerful combinations.

Even at low levels something like mach gust combined with metal spike tt have a super fast crossbow bolt of death is scary.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:22 pm 
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So, we'd basically be making use of the inherent, natural elements we all agree are part of spells? Allowing you to mix-and-match spells to add elemental effects? If so, I could work with that. But what about spells that don't have a clear, single elemental association?

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:39 pm 
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All mage spells that are not custom are directly associated with a particular element, so I would presume that the addition gained by consuming one charge of any spell would be directly linked to which book it origniated in. With custom spells, basic common sense would have to prevail as to what element the spell contributes, but even if the spell has a mixture of elements, limiting it to one added effect of either type would work as well.

Just semantically, I think that instead of "blast radius", "affected area" would work better, since there are quite a lot of spells that while not having an explosive effect, would still benefit from having a larger area of effect. Also, I would modify the air set to "slight shock, moderate shock, strong shock, powerful shock" and change it to "explosive force" as opposed to "push back". My rationale for changing it to slight/moderate/strong/powerful, up from slight/small/medium/strong is that not only is the only powerful air spell a 5 turn strong-shock-on-contact spell which would be completely and utterly wasted on a single strong shock (no matter what spell it was combined with, since you would only get one chance to hit, as opposed to five turns to land a hit if you just used it). Secondly, the reason electricity spells are so powerful is because they are practically insta-hit since they move instantaneously (hence their high cost, small number of uses and general inavailability), however, if it's just charge placed in another spell, it is the speed of whatever spell it is combined with that will determine it's speed, making it no more powerful than the burn/freeze effects of the fire or water books; hence, it should be ranked the same in power.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:18 am 
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We should break this out into a new topic. TMB, can you do the honors?

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:50 am 
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So umm, what thinks you all of the Samurai laido idea?

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14845

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:11 am 
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What dose everyone think about removing the restrictions on having to buy the other elements? Also what about having a combined stress system to stop getting mages stuck in one element. This would lead to lots of great combinations of spells + elemental energies.

What I put forward was just an example concept really of what adding certain elements to other spells could do. As far as the shock I know electricity is considered the strongest element and adding a powerful thunder charge to even a weak water spell could be devastating.
In most circumstances the boost will seem weaker than actually casting a spell but varying the effects and landing key strikes will give the class plenty of flavor. Also this will allow higher level mages to play more tactically rather than just spell spamming.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:05 pm 
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Erm, I read this in the MA suggestions but this belongs outside of the topic...

Only one active skill on a character? I uhh, believe I missed that becoming a rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch time?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:42 pm 
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It has been that way for a while now, I believe at least as long as I've been here. See the FAQ, question 25. I think that's the only official place where it is mentioned.

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