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Do you even support this idea at all?
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 Post subject: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:09 pm 
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Yes indeed. W/ our more concentrated population, perhaps it's safe to try and discuss/create an agreeable system whereby people could maintain multiple characters on DI. While you can already create multiple characters, the current system follows a "scorched earth" paradigm, wherein, once you've created/started using your new char, your old one is gone forever. This discussion is to try and find a good middle ground whereby people can have more than one character they're building at the same time.

So, some basic ground rules around possibly allowing people to switch characters:

  • There has to be come kind of "active" character. Your active character is the one that may participate in battles and any other significant DI-related battle events. Just like you can't be active in two battles w/ the same character, you can't have two different characters engaged in a fight at the same time.
  • Gold or unclaimed skills/specials/spells/etc. cannot be transferred from one character to the next. If one character earned it, he gets to keep it. This applies to medals & special items won in any special event. (For instance, if I spun up an alternate character, Jaedin couldn't just bequeath his indestructible hookshot to that fresh-out-of-the-box character).

Some suggested ground rules that are up for debate:

  • Some kind of limit on how many characters you can have at one time (3?).
  • Some kind of limit on how often you can switch between active characters. For instance, not allowing character switches w/o first completing two battles w/ your currently active character
    • One problem I see here would be "throw-away" battles cropping up, where people spin up a quick battle just to switch characters. Along the same lines, what about battles that default and so are never really "complete". Do they count?
    • Maybe a time limit might be better than a battle limit. But, that's why this is just a suggestion.
  • A system to actually "delete" characters for some reason (RP didn't work out, character sucks, you just don't like them, bad life choice, whatever).
  • Some system to make it easier for people to manage multiple characters on the Member's List - it'd be nice to collect all a member's characters into one place

One note I'd like to make: I feel that most of the disagreement for this revolves around having multiple character with which you engage in battle. If we took that out of the mix, maybe there wouldn't be as much trouble with multiple people per member. For instance, Tequila Mockingbird (BK, or some other alias I'll cook up later) has brought up the idea of using multiple character's for different RP-related stories/quests/etc. I see no problem w/ that, though it could get a bit...confusing/frustrating if you have more than one of your own characters participating in the same RP. That'd just be...weird.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:09 am 
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Some kind of limit on how many characters you can have at one time (3?).
Sounds good to me.
Some kind of limit on how often you can switch between active characters. For instance, not allowing character switches w/o first completing two battles w/ your currently active character
Do we really need this? What would the problem be in deciding what character I wanted to use on a battle by battle basis, for example if i was fighting a new person i might not want to have to hold Kate's power back, or if i was fighting someone I had before i might want to be someone else to mix it up.
One problem I see here would be "throw-away" battles cropping up, where people spin up a quick battle just to switch characters. Along the same lines, what about battles that default and so are never really "complete". Do they count?
Maybe a time limit might be better than a battle limit. But, that's why this is just a suggestion.
As above...
A system to actually "delete" characters for some reason (RP didn't work out, character sucks, you just don't like them, bad life choice, whatever).
Your allowed three characters, if you create another one you have to delete one of your current three making them lost forever.
Some system to make it easier for people to manage multiple characters on the Member's List - it'd be nice to collect all a member's characters into one place
Possibly a sticky post in the members list listing members and their three active characters?


Also are we allowing people to bring back long lost characters to be used as their possible 3? Personally i think we should as I know some members who regret getting rid of their characters.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:36 pm 
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LeboyX wrote:
Some kind of limit on how many characters you can have at one time (3?).
Sounds good to me.

Some kind of limit on how often you can switch between active characters. For instance, not allowing character switches w/o first completing two battles w/ your currently active character
Do we really need this? What would the problem be in deciding what character I wanted to use on a battle by battle basis, for example if i was fighting a new person i might not want to have to hold Kate's power back, or if i was fighting someone I had before i might want to be someone else to mix it up.
Your points are valid. I put this idea out there b/c I anticipate some kind of...storm of character switching that would make it very difficult to track who was what. I wanted people to invest in their characters instead of switching them out like tools on a swiss army knife.

One problem I see here would be "throw-away" battles cropping up, where people spin up a quick battle just to switch characters. Along the same lines, what about battles that default and so are never really "complete". Do they count?
Maybe a time limit might be better than a battle limit. But, that's why this is just a suggestion.
As above...
As above...

A system to actually "delete" characters for some reason (RP didn't work out, character sucks, you just don't like them, bad life choice, whatever).
You're allowed three characters, if you create another one you have to delete one of your current three making them lost forever.
For a character delete, a mod would probably lock the deleted character's page to prevent tampering. I agree we should disallow people digging up deleted characters.


Some system to make it easier for people to manage multiple characters on the Member's List - it'd be nice to collect all a member's characters into one place
Possibly a sticky post in the members list listing members and their three active characters?
With links to each of their character pages. I wish a single thread could have sub-threads - that'd be the best organizational solution, I think. But, since I don't think the forum supports unlimited nesting, this could be a good compromise.



Also are we allowing people to bring back long lost characters to be used as their possible 3? Personally i think we should as I know some members who regret getting rid of their characters.
Maybe. While I doubt this would happen b/c some members have been long gone for so long I don't think they're coming back, there are some characters that were created pre patches and before DI had a better hold on what the rules for character creation and fighting were. Back in the day, there was an alchemist who also owned a dragon - he's not digging his character up.

So, bottom line: it'd have to be on a case-by-case basis. Mods would have to determine whether resurrecting an old character could be allowed, or whether the character should be allowed to rest in peace.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:05 am 
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Many characters from old time's past were reacclimated upon a person's return - TDK comes to mind. He was allowed to keep his Master of Magic title, but his dragon that was human-bought had to go. Might not be so case-by-case than it is revamping what used to be there.

I always had mixed feelings about this. Whose original idea was this? I remember being in support of this, but then right when I figured "friendlies" existed, I quickly disregarded retirement as a legitimate system. But since we're considering this again, let me think about the necessary limitations.

I agree with Leboy that the issue here is commitment. With some people, their "main" character might not be as well defined or dominant as my Tyzrk or Leboy's Jaedin would be, should we put our characters for retirement. The problem with forceful arrest of their main or other side characters (I'm in favor for only two characters existing should this system go through, honestly) for a new one based off of time or any sort of development is, aside from quitting for the allotted time or fraudulence as previously mentioned, that once those characters reached the one or two battle criteria, they may not be much weaker than their main is already. I'm not sure if that would decrease incentive or moral or anything like that.

Also, I am in favor of restricting a player from switching characters should one happen to be in debt with the DI bank OR players. Actually, Player-to-Player debt will also have to be explicitly stated as debts to CHARACTERS so as to prevent people from transferring money off a main to another person to give to their side.

Player DDR gives 20 gold from Tyzrk to Player Deal_breaker's JohnJones (Deal_Breaker in debt 20 gold to DDR)
Player DDR retires Tyzrk in favor of Ranoka
Deal_Breaker repays debt to DDR, but under Ranoka, giving a fresh character a head start of 20 gold

This way, Player DDR can switch characters while Tyzrk is -loaning- gold, and therefore is not restricted to retire as per my own debt rule stated above. In this case, Deal_breaker's JohnJones would be able pay money at his own convenience but to TYZRK, for her to enjoy (and be happy with it until she realizes it was hers to begin with) when Player DDR switches back, giving no unfair start to Ranoka.

We don't want people making new side characters after every one of their first battles. I'm not sure of a good system to encourage making characters they'd like to keep. That is why I myself stick to friendlies (thatIdon'tcompletewhoops). I don't think it's a matter of a limit to how often people may switch, but is a matter of a limit to how often people can create characters. Yes, a two-battle criteria before switching could encourage a player to spend time with their character and hopefully like it but if they get bored they should not be punished by not being able to go back onto their "main". However, we should focus on not being able to make a new side character right away. If he makes a side, how about we make a two/three or more battle limit before they can make a new one. Not much less than what your aforementioned suggestion was, but that way they can battle at least once with their new character (if they made their character and didn't battle with it, what's the point?? a one-battle limit for their new side is implied) and see if they like it. If they don't, they can spend time on their main until they cross the threshold to make a new side character.

I would like people to designate a "main" character that would be different than their "active", but I'm assuming that is no big deal as everyone can assume that an older character put aside for a newer one can be called a "main", and there are currently no rewards or bonuses given to the main except being able to say "I spent the most time on that guy". Also, a side character could be worked on more and eventually surpass the main, becoming the new main and thus really rendering such a title useless.



YES, I'd love a thread in the Members List that would list people and their character pages with links. Most people can find their opponent's character sheet through a link in their sig (mines happens to be embedded in the cave of eternity), but it can be a great resource. It can also double as a psuedo-Active Members list for now, as people are slowly popping up and more and more characters can be added in the Great Sticky Thread as time passes.

How would selling items to another character work? I'm assuming that as far as the retirement system goes, every character under a single player is considered to NOT EXIST at the same time as another, so selling or any sort of functional, non-RP interaction with one another would be strictly impossible. RPing with yourself would be kind of awkward depending on how long it'd go... I'd rather just keep that sort of thing to a story.

Being able to pick which character you'd want to use freely (given loans and other such restrictions do not apply) before a match could be very advantageous strategy-wise. Or maybe not. I guess agreeing on what character matchups people would use would have to be settled on a case-by-case basis. I feel like I'm saying a lot of nothing...

EDIT: I think your poll's busted there, Leboy.

Odd...
-LeboyX

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:32 am 
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Maybe get rid of player to player debts? In all honesty a player has a starting gold for a reason and i can't imagine its good for a character to have a bank dept (15gp) which takes time to pay off and a player to player debt. plus scrapping player to player debt gets rid of all the pain if a player drops of the face of the earth.

If players want to switch between people often and thus stunt each ones growth why stop them? It wouldn't be much different than how some people created a new character every couple of battles anyway?

Maybe have a character creation limit of every two months meaning you can't just spam new characters?

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:18 pm 
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I would limit it by battles, honestly, but make it so that any of their characters can battle to fulfill this criteria.

As for debts and loans, it is an interesting proposition. But I'm sure as more people reappear and things get a bit more active and stable, no P2P loans may be an unpopular move...

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:17 pm 
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I like this idea, always have and it would allow players with older more powerful characters to have some to use against newer players until they are up to the same strength as an older characters strength.

It also allows you to fight against the same person but still have a different experience because it is going to be a different character.

You can also use this to give an older character more of a challenge especially for a character like say Jeadin. Where before you could have more of a challenge by going 2v1 against two people. You could do a 2v1 against the same person with them using two of their characters. The battle would flow easier than a normal three character battle because there's still only 2 people involved. Jeadin would get a normal reward, while the two characters would get a reward but reduced, say if in a 1v1 the character would have gotten a stronger and 8 gold then the two would get a medium and 5 gold each allowing both to be built a little.

Overall I'm all for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:32 pm 
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Ye that's my thoughts entirely, hopefully fresh characters will help keep the game interesting too.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Wow, Khan - you make a good point. I'll have to post more on that later - headed down to my friend's graduation for the day.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:16 pm 
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leboyX wrote:
Wow, Khan - you make a good point. I'll have to post more on that later - headed down to my friend's graduation for the day.


You make it sound like its the first good point I've ever had :P

For the day... just proves the time difference, it's almost 11:30pm here.

y u use my color? *shakefist*

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:59 pm 
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So are we thinking that this is probably going to happen?

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Maybe, Tequila, but I still want to dial in the restrictions.

I'm feeling you should get 2 characters. Your "primary" one (whatever that is defined as) and your "auxiliary" one. For most people, those'll just end up being your first and second character, respectively. But as the system progresses, I'd imagine that auxiliary characters tend to be more disposable then their primary counterparts. Auxiliary characters are for when members want to try out something new and different; take things from a different angle. But by setting aside your primary character, you're actively saying you want to invest more time in that character than another.

Of course, auxiliary and primary characters can be swapped at any time. However, if you want to build another character, you'll have to ditch one - probably your auxiliary character. No archiving or retiring them - they're just gone.

I'm not going to outlaw p2p loans - that's too restrictive. However, in the case where a member's char B owes someone else gold and that same member want to get rid of char B: the debt from char B would be transferred to the member's other character. Basically, they would "inherit" the debt.

As for when member's drop off the face of the earth, I think that's an ok risk for the benefit of having p2p loans accessible to all.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:15 am 
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I'm fine with "inheriting" debt when a secondary character is scrapped for a new one. The debt goes to the main character, not the new secondary right? That'd be... silly. I can see that my proposed limits (not being able to scrap a character until all debts are paid) would kinda discourage anyone from just scrapping for a new secondary at all.

Still, I'd like the repayment of debt to be character-specific. Sure, we can have the main character pay for a side character that doesn't exist anymore. But only to the loaner, I imagine. What would happen if:

Player 1's character B owes money to Player 2's character A
Player 1 scraps their character B, character A is now responsible for the debt to Player 2's character A
Player 2 scraps character A

What... happens to the loan? Neither participant of the original loan deal exist anymore.

Also, I'd like a restriction on items from one character popping on to another's. Say a custom or any item, basically. Obviously we'll restrict direct trading between them, but we also have to consider trading to another player for them to give to their other. Otherwise, one character could get beefy off of free items while a player keeps mule-ing out more and more side characters.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:47 am 
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ddranimestyle wrote:
I'm fine with "inheriting" debt when a secondary character is scrapped for a new one. The debt goes to the main character, not the new secondary right?
Yes

Still, I'd like the repayment of debt to be character-specific. Sure, we can have the main character pay for a side character that doesn't exist anymore. But only to the loaner, I imagine. What would happen if:

Player 1's character B owes money to Player 2's character A
Player 1 scraps their character B, character A is now responsible for the debt to Player 2's character A
Player 2 scraps character A

What... happens to the loan? Neither participant of the original loan deal exist anymore.
While a valid scenario, I imagine this is a pretty rare case. First of all, it assumes that Player 2 scrapped their primary character. Do they have a char B? If so, I'd say the debt goes there. If they don't, Player 2 has either 1) Left DI or 2) Needs to make another character. In both cases, I'd say the debt should still be paid to the DI "bank". For the former case, there's really nowhere else for the debt to go. For the latter, repaying it to Player 2's new Char C seems a bit unbalanced and prone to abuse - Char C would get a sudden inundation of gold for nothing.

Also, I'd like a restriction on items from one character popping on to another's. Say a custom or any item, basically. Obviously we'll restrict direct trading between them, but we also have to consider trading to another player for them to give to their other. Otherwise, one character could get beefy off of free items while a player keeps mule-ing out more and more side characters.
I agree, but not really for the reasons stated. It's fairly easy to stop people from cheating the system by going through 4 different parties just to get what they want. But I'd want to stop self-to-self weapon trading b/c it would basically let 1 item be used for 2 characters (by trading it when you switch main-to-auxiliary or vice versa). If people really wanted to, I suppose you could trade to your other character for some "transaction fee" due to the DI bank (say, 10 gold?). That seems like a fair compromise.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:44 am 
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With 10 gold anyone would probably just work to get a replica of the item involved, so I suppose that's good. The main items we're presumably worried about are customs that are attributed to certain classes/catalysts anyways, I'm assuming.

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