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Do you even support this idea at all?
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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:53 am 
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leboyX wrote:
Lord Sawsaw2 wrote:
Say, for example, I create a second character in addition to Infineon (and trust me, when the retirement system is all cleared up, I will be), and stick with both of them without overwriting either of them. There are a couple of situations which I would like clarified and perhaps thought on.

First of all, if/when Infineon reaches peak item and gold level, but I still wish to battle with him or RP with him, I don't want my hard earned rewards to actually go to him at all, I want the gold on my other character. In the current system, I would lose x amount of gold by transferring the gold/items across to the other character, making it not fundamentally a good idea to use Infineon any more as I would just be throwing away a part of my reward every time I battled. The effect would be either making me more and more likely to use my alternate character, despite still wanting to use Infineon, or otherwise imposing a tax on the use of my favored character, neither of which are good. As such, a system where you can nominate the character that gets the reward (other, obviously, than in the cases of PQ or Tournament exclusive items), allowing characters to still be used once part of the reward is no longer useful for them. (And in any case, let's face it, battles rarely have a rational reason why any specific character would be rewarded gold at the end of them, so it's not like the story suffers for having another character benefit from the actions of a different player character)

[I disagree that the reward system has no rational purpose behind it. It is generally accepted that fighting is just "what you do" if you live in DI. As such, it makes sense that gold gets dolled out to those who fight. Furthermore, I think it's clear that getting skills/specials/spells from battles makes all the sense in the world - your character is gaining more experience and growing stronger.]

[Furthermore, the system is not intended to encourage you to use one character or the other. It's to allow you to do so if you want. The characters need to be made as separate as possible, while still allowing you some "edge" by maintaining two character under a single member. If you let someone C1 work for a reward, only to immediately pass it down to C2, you have an imbalance of power. You have one character reaping the reward of a different character. Put another way - you have your fresh, powerless character who gets strong/richer by sitting on his but while your behemoth of a primary character goes around wrecking DI for kicks.]


~[I'm not saying the reward system doesn't have a rational purpose behind it, I'm saying that it has no actual in-game, reasonable explanation for why it takes place. Two evil people fight in a forest around a burning house, and one wins. Cool, abilities make sense, they gain combat experience, but there's no actual person handing the combatants gold. As skills and specials can't be transferred between characters, this point was entirely about who gets the gold from the fight, and if the explanation for getting gold for fighting is just 'your character gains the opportunity to gain x gold', why can't it be 'a character of your choosing gains the opportunity to gain x gold' in story sense.]~

~[From a balance point of view, this would be for characters who the player determines either currently no longer needs gold, and would opt that ALL gold rewards go to their other character, no matter which of your characters you use in the battle. This is basically only to allow people who have an already developed character and a second less developed character to still use their richer character in fights without wasting the gold.]~


Secondly, I would recommend that if the issue with trading items between characters is about making sure that no newly-created character is made overpowered by an influx of items from the older character, rather than making it a 10-gold-down-the-drain transaction fee each way, allow items to be moved between characters freely, given that either a percentage of the item's cost or a flat rate in gold is transferred in return as a deposit. Then when the item is returned, the gold switches hands back. This system would mean that you would not be getting free gold transfer (as the gold would effectively be in storage, as it would have to be traded back with the item), and it would also mean that the items that any one character could inherit was limited by the amount of money that they would have earned in their life. Perhaps putting a minimum number of fights the items had to be traded across for, say two? And finally a clause that in the event of either character being overwritten, the trade reverts unless the party who has the borrowed item pays the remaining cost of the item out of their own pockets.

[So, rather than losing money, you're saying they're getting their money back once the item returns? As with my first point, this system isn't supposed to give members frictionless interaction between their characters. That's unfair to people who don't have 2 chars, which is an immediate veto in my book.]

[If you delete a char and they have a traded item, it's 1) Gone, 2) May be traded back for a fee to the other character, or 3) Handled specially by a mod. These rules are meant to be general guidelines for the 80% of the cases we'l have. For everything else, we have sane, rational mods to moderate the small nit-picks we can't all think of right now.]


~[The point about friction less interaction is why I recommended a minimum limit that the item had to be in a characters hands for. I can't see this being a particularly prevalent idea with my recommended system in place, given that you are intentionally weakening your stronger character to give a weaker character a minor advantage that comes with the other weapon. Particularly since it's unlikely the character has a decent level of training with the traded weapon. If it's an issue with the money going into the item, just make it a 100% value deposit. If it's a regular item that the character can somehow weave into the story that they obtained it off the other player character, they simply deposit 100% of that items cost in their other character and keep the item for a set number of battles. If it's a unique weapon, it would be the effective value of the item, rather than the price paid (ie. If you borrow one unique throwing dagger from a set of 6, or you get a unique item from another character that would be worth less than 15 gold if it weren't unique, you wouldn't have to pay the full 15 gold (which is supposed to represent combination costs, smithing etc, rather than the actual value of the item itself)). In that way you could ensure that no character has more items that is strictly necessary, but also means that if for story purposes the two characters cross paths and items are exchanged, it doesn't leave the second character with a potentially useless second copy of the original item.]~

Which leads me to my final point, which is sale value of items and moving items between characters just before a character overwrite. While it's unlikely to happen, in the event that two people collaborate together, it is currently possible for items to be transferred basically for free as I understand it, as players set the prices on moved items. Thus, you could sell a unique item for a low cost and then buy it back on your other character for the same small sum before destroying the character the item originally came from. This leads to the conclusion that either a) there should be a restriction or guidelines implemented regarding transactions between players or b) there should be a way to retrieve unique items for a portion of their cost from a character about to be overwritten.

[This suggests a 3-part trade, yes?. C1 trades to D1, trades to C2. Right? All trades are approved by mods. Shenanigans can be easily spotted and disallowed as such. This has already been moderated, esp. to prevent the whole "mommy/daddy". So, basically, your suggestion of point (a) is already implemented.]

[As DDR, the mods will know. That's our job.]


~[Righto, didn't know all trades were moderator-governed, not having ever traded anything before. Thanks for clearing that up!]~

Anyway, those are my sleep-deprived thoughts as they are. I'm sure more will occur to me in time.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:31 am 
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All trades are soft-modded in that they don't require a mod directly stating whether a transaction is legitimate or not. Instead, they'll only take action should they see shady stuff happening, and deal with it re-actively after it happens and they notice.

I may have said something along the lines of this earlier in the thread, but Leboy articulated it much better for me. I am generally in favor of this system carrying the general guidelines that the two characters under control of a person must be kept as separate as possible, as if they don't exist in the same world as each other at any given point in time of one another. That was why I was surprised at rules allowing for the trade of items and gold between the characters, and these types of transactions must be very limited by nature.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:50 am 
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See, that's where my opinion of the system differs to you, DDR. I personally would/will/intend to treat my second character as an associated comrade of my main character. A radically different class, personality etc, but still an associate.

I could make it work with no trading between my characters, simply isolating them and having only their paths cross, but there are so many interesting possibilities with this new system that I could use if these characters could simply be treated similarly to how you would treat any other character in this world. Anyway, that's just my take on the matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:39 am 
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I can see both sides of the between character trading. On one hand if you make a character that is the friend or family member of the first character it makes sense that if they were to meet up in a story you wrote or an RP they both participated in that they might exchange items which is good for story progression.

However on the other side my mind immeadiately moves to my own character. I decide to make a beserker that is someone Josh knew from the past. They meet up and Josh gives him Jasmine. You now have a fresh beserker with the ability to go into a boosting rage with arguably the most powerful non-PQ item in the game. This is a bad bad thing balance wise.


On the rewards though the rational is what you make of it. Josh used to work for a shadow organisation who sent him out to attack people and paid him for it. If you have a rogue maybe you stole it. In the end the rational is up to you to roleplay. You can always sacrifice the gold reward if you really want, I'm sure there is someone else that will take it.

That having been said, if there was a viable story link between the two characters than I might be open to the discussion of a portion of your winnings going to them, for a delivery fee of course. (E.g. C1 wins 6 gold, 2 gets sent to C2, C1 keeps 2 but the remaining 2 are lost.

I wouldn't want specials exchanged though.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:31 pm 
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@LSS: I'm not saying you can't associate your two chars. That would restrict RP, and I'm not about trying to do that. But, like I've said before, having two characters isn't supposed to be about gaining an advantage by having two people able to work in tandem with each other. If there were two separate members whose characters were interacting, that'd be one thing. But with two chars under one member, the free flow of wealth/items is just too easy a system to abuse. Fresh characters can too easily become benefactors of their wealthy, more-powerful "patron" characters.

As Khan mentioned, it does make sense to sometimes have characters (whether under the same member or not) interact in some monetary way. And that's fine. But the general expectation of multiple characters shouldn't be "Sweet! Now I can take all this awesome stuff from one guy and dump it onto the other". If people felt there should be an exception for them, they could bring it up with a mod. That's fine. But I don't think we should make the general case allow for free trade between a member's characters.

One reason for the "tax" on gold from one char to the other is that, among normal members in DI, p2p loans come with some kind of interest rate. Between two chars under the same member, you wouldn't really want that b/c, well...it's all your gold anyway. Let's face it - people are more inclined to be gracious to themselves than to others. (That's not bad, it's just something I think would happen when you're making your two chars interact). By "taxing" it, that interest rate remains intact to avoid one char amassing the gold from two characters. So, for gold, I think some kind of "cost of doing business tax" between C1 and C2 should remain intact. If you want gold, you need to work for it. Characters aren't like two parallel people under a single account - they're both distinct, and their personalities (and wallets) are separate.

EDIT: The real problem here is that, before multiple characters, if somebody gave something away, their char had to keep living w/o it. It's not like members made a trade or gave something away and then disappeared for a couple months. But w/ multiple chars under a single member, that's exactly what can happen. C1 can give stuff away that really make him who he is, but he doesn't need to worry: the member owning C1 & C2 only ever plays one of them at a time, so the lack of power in one will never be exposed.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:24 pm 
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leboyX wrote:

EDIT: The real problem here is that, before multiple characters, if somebody gave something away, their char had to keep living w/o it. It's not like members made a trade or gave something away and then disappeared for a couple months. But w/ multiple chars under a single member, that's exactly what can happen. C1 can give stuff away that really make him who he is, but he doesn't need to worry: the member owning C1 & C2 only ever plays one of them at a time, so the lack of power in one will never be exposed.


Good edit, that's what I was going to point out thank you leboy!! My second is going to be morgoth's [Paramore] Myrie played legally! Can't wait for these to be ironed out so i can really make her full character sheet.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:40 am 
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Does... nothing else need to be said?

It will probably take a LONG time before a character no longer finds use for gold... And the main way I see items transferred between characters are a (rather permanent) trade or something heirloom/ancestral-like.

With most MMOs, the bank system allows transfer of gold/items to separate characters on a similar account. For all intents and purposes, this is allowed because all characters on the account are considered to be the same person. I feel that in an RP setting like DI, the characters are not interchangeable for one another, and neither are their belongings.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:03 am 
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ddranimestyle wrote:
Does... nothing else need to be said?

It will probably take a LONG time before a character no longer finds use for gold... And the main way I see items transferred between characters are a (rather permanent) trade or something heirloom/ancestral-like.

With most MMOs, the bank system allows transfer of gold/items to separate characters on a similar account. For all intents and purposes, this is allowed because all characters on the account are considered to be the same person. I feel that in an RP setting like DI, the characters are not interchangeable for one another, and neither are their belongings.

By the same token in MMO most items are also BOP which prevents them from being ever given to another character, only your cosmetic items and lessor weapons and trade goods are ever really transferable between characters

This doesn't touch on buying something specifically for the other character using the older character. So C1 buys a weapon for C2 C1 pays the full price however never has the item, C2 pays 50% of the items cost in handling charges. This means a character can buy newbitems at half cost with the assistance of a cashed up old character but no actual trading would be allowed

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:36 am 
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What about customs? In this vain I would expect that customs must be created and paid for in full by the character whom it is for. Something so critical to a character's identity should not be allowed this "Gifting" system.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:14 pm 
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Again, while being able to buy things on another character for your less advanced character is nice, 50% duty??? That's an ABSURD waste for buying things, and again just reinforces the fact that once you have two characters and one of them reaches a place where you don't really want to spend any more money on them, you simply can't AFFORD to use them in RPs or Battles, since you need all your money on the developing character. It's a waste and it channels people back into their newer characters to get any sort of item development on them...

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:00 pm 
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Lord Sawsaw2 wrote:
Again, while being able to buy things on another character for your less advanced character is nice, 50% duty??? That's an ABSURD waste for buying things, and again just reinforces the fact that once you have two characters and one of them reaches a place where you don't really want to spend any more money on them, you simply can't AFFORD to use them in RPs or Battles, since you need all your money on the developing character


No, it does not. If you're to the point where you don't want to advance C1 anymore...why play them at all? If a character has reached the peak of his development, anything you'd gain for him isn't worth it anyway, b/c you won't use it. If he's just giving away all their gold, he's still going to have a pile of skills/specials that they have nothing w/ which to do. Furthermore, even if you could only transfer gold (for free), it's not like that's the one and only thing that characters live on. Specials/skills are really the bread & butter of a character, I think.

And again, you can still push gold from C1 to C2. It just costs a bit more to do it. It makes sense that to funnel gold into C2 like that is less efficient than C2 just earning it themselves. It's an economic incentive for members to actually make their characters do the work.

Lord Sawsaw2 wrote:
It's a waste and it channels people back into their newer characters to get any sort of item development on them...


Excactly. Shouldn't people actually use their characters to develop them, instead of making them grow by some meta-gaming shenanigans?

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:26 pm 
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Everything Leboyx said, if you don't want to develop C1 don't play him. The retirement system idea wasn't thought up so that you could use one character to supercharge another. The idea was that someone thatvhas been playing the same character for a long time can refresh their experience with something new without having to destroy the character they had put their heart and soul into.

It happens to everyone eventually, you don't want to use you big strong character but you don't want to throw him away for the sake of trying something different for awhile.

You want C2 to be stronger use him, I would concede the ability to help the nee character a tiny little bit at its creation to help give it the initial form you had in your mind but that's about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Then, for gold giving, I propose a 20% tarif (or interest rate, if that makes any more sense) to any transfer between C1 & C2. As far as interest rates go, that's an incredibly good deal. The DI banks loans out @ 50%, which is sort of your last resort for gold. Even OSO, in all his benevolence, only loaned out @ 33%. And with loans, you have to pay them back! With C1 --> C2 transfers, no payback is necessary.

I think that's pretty fair. Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:38 pm 
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Perhaps, sounds solid enough.

My only other idea was to allow a one time gift at the creation of the new character by the old character and no other transfers from that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Retirement?! I'd just get bored!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:40 am 
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I personally think the 20% gold transfer is a good idea, especially if it meant no straight out item transfers.

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