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 Post subject: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:46 am 
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I've been thinking of making a new character as an alchemist, but I was kind'f disappointed w/ what's available for the class. In general, I don't like classes that have pre-determined sets of what you can/can't do. While most casting classes have a milestone system, you are, for the most part, limited to whatever is baked into the class. (However, a pre-made list for caster's makes sense...like a "spell book").

Personally, I more prefer a class that has its users think up what they want their character can do instead of drawing from a list.

Alchemists currently have a "custom" option for all their potions, where each concoction requires you to have a weak/medium/strong "thing" to create. But, the system isn't really emphasized. I propose that we ditch the pre-made list of potions and just let people cook up (literally) their own. To do this, I'd like to rework the mechanics of the class as follows.

I wrote:
Alchemist

Description TBD

Starts With: 0 gold, 1 Standard Alchemical Ingredient Satchel (holds 20 "units")
Starting Stats: 3 skills (3 weak), 3 potions (2 medium, 1 weak)


Basic Ingredients

Alchemists strive through years of practice to craft clever and useful potions from whatever resources they have at their disposal. The more ingredients they have, the greater their options for what to brew.

There are 4 basic ingredients that can be used in any potion. The following list names and describes the basic nature of each ingredient

  • Earth-based ingredient name TBD
  • Fire-based ingredient name TBD
  • Air-based ingredient name TBD
  • Water-based ingredient name TBD

All alchemists start w/ 4 "units" of three of the above ingredient. They start w/ 2 of the odd one out. (So, a starting character could have 4 "units" of Earth, Fire, and Water-based ingredients, and 2 of Air). Characters can go on to purchase more of these. See "Purchasing Ingredients" below.

Advanced Ingredients

Advanced alchemy often requires equally advanced ingredients. While more rare, the cost of acquiring such valuable materials is well worth it when one correctly taps their full potential.

  • Light-based ingredient name TBD
  • Darkness-based ingredient name TBD
  • Spirit-based ingredient name TBD

B/c of the higher cost and difficulty in procuring these elements, alchemists do not start w/ any of these ingredients. However, they can be purchased like basic ingredients. See "Purchasing Ingredients", below.

Carrying Ingredients and Preparing Them For Battle

The process of mixing ingredients to precise specifications is not an art perfected under the pressure of a battlefield. Instead, alchemists pre-brew each of their potions prior to battle.

Often sought after for their prowess in their mysterious art, alchemists are accustomed to both fighting and fleeing for their life. As such, they have developed a method of carrying their ingredients w/ them using a specialized leather satchel. This pouch is specifically designed to render inert all ingredients contained within - providing alchemists w/ the ability to travel at length w/o worrying about accidentally dropping their ingredients and causing an unpredictable reaction. However, this mobility comes at the cost of versatility - a standard alchemist ingredient pouch can only hold a total of 20 "units" of any combination of ingredients.

Purchasing Ingredients

  • Earth/Fire/Air/Water: 4 gold per "unit"
  • Light/Darkness: 10 gold per "unit"
  • Spirit: 25 gold per "unit"

Note the high cost of Spirit ingredients. This is due to the difficulty of procuring and manufacturing such a complex and mystical agent.

In some cases (to be determined by the moderators), certain accomplishments may carry the reward of specialized ingredients instead of simply gold.

The ingredient pouch can be expanded as well. Each expansion to the satchel adds 5 additional "units" of storage capacity, but each expansion also costs more than the last.

  • 1st expansion: 8 gold
  • 2nd expansion: 12 gold
  • 3rd expansion: 17 gold



Obviously, the class relies heavily on acquiring gold instead of acquiring skill/specials. Since brewing new potions will require more ingredients and weak/medium/strong "specials", it gives them a unique way to grow. The milestone system might work for controlling how quickly an alchemist can expand his ingredients and holding capacity, but that's up for debate.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:56 am 
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Here's an idea: how about allows alchemists to collect ingredients during battles? These would be lower grade than basic ingredients, but they would allow for players to get that one ingredient that they just have to have to finish they last potion... or to spam weak potions by making them out of low-quality ingredients that they just found lying around. Maybe if you only use low-quality, the potion has a chance of exploding, or something.

Without this, a starting alchemist can make a maximum of 2 potions per battle (a few more if he goes heavily into debt), since I assume that each potion will take at least 2 ingredients.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:28 am 
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My only concern is having to pay for the upgrades, having a largely gold bases class (similar to the MT) can lead to slow character progression and a blocker to getting custom equipment.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:27 pm 
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bluedragonfire wrote:
Here's an idea: how about allows alchemists to collect ingredients during battles? These would be lower grade than basic ingredients, but they would allow for players to get that one ingredient that they just have to have to finish they last potion... or to spam weak potions by making them out of low-quality ingredients that they just found lying around. Maybe if you only use low-quality, the potion has a chance of exploding, or something.

I don't think scavenging ingredients from the battlefield would be practical or easy to manage - not every environment has everything an alchemist might need at hand. It's also a little unfair to just say "Hey, look! Alchemy ingredients I can mix on the spot!". One of the change to this class was that the potions are pre-made; you can't just whip them up in a jiffy.

Without this, a starting alchemist can make a maximum of 2 potions per battle (a few more if he goes heavily into debt), since I assume that each potion will take at least 2 ingredients.
I'm not sure how the math adds up for that, given your assumption. Alchemists get 14 "units" of stuff (4 + 4 + 4 + 2). If a potion took at least 2 ingredients, that 7 potions max for a starting alchemist (14 / 2 = 7). But, since they can only make 3, they may have some leftover for use in the future.

My hope here was to achieve the following situation: Alchemist player submits a potion of strength X to a mod for approval. If the mod feels it's of appropriate strength, he sends back what he thinks it'd take to brew such a potion. Then the alchemist just has to use/buy those ingredients to "acquire" the potion.


Tequila Mockingbird wrote:
My only concern is having to pay for the upgrades, having a largely gold bases class (similar to the MT) can lead to slow character progression and a blocker to getting custom equipment.

I'd thought about that too - gold would become a bottleneck. You'd have several "X" strength "things" lying around, but not have the gold to expand your collection. This could lead to slow character growth, w/ the added complexity of generally higher-power potions, since the wait time for getting more gold means you'd get more "specials". However, keep in mind that the basic ingredients are relatively cheap, and that starting alchemists won't need to buy a large supply of ingredients right away.

My first solution to this would be to allow alchemists to convert battle rewards into gold. Weaks, mediums, and strong/powerfuls could become additional gold for them to use for purchasing stuff.

Furthermore, the price system can be tweaked to make it more affordable. I just want it to force the player to diligently spend their gold appropriately. Currently, gold's mostly just saved up for cool, custom items. Why not make it more useful for day-to-day things?



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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:08 pm 
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How would the ingredient cost of potions go? how about something like:

2 basic ingredients = weak potion
4 basic ingredients = medium potion
2 basic + 1 light/dark ingredient = strong potion
2 basic + 1 spirit = powerful potion

--------

What about really mixing it up .

maybe it costs skills to obtain the ingredients

1 weak = 4 x basic ingredients
1 medium = 2 x advanced ingredients
1 strong = 1 x rare ingredient

and then maybe potion recipes cost gold

4 gold = 2 weak recipes
8 gold = 2 medium recipes
16 gold = 2 strong recipes
16 gold = 1 powerful recipe

to make a potion:

2 basic ingredients = weak potion
4 basic ingredients = medium potion
2 basic + 1 advanced ingredient = strong potion
2 basic + 1 rare ingredient = powerful potion

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Ah, I have misread. I thought you get 1 of each and 2 of the odd one out; 5 total. Which would be enough for 2 potions. Sorry. With 14 starting ingredients, I withdraw my objections.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:36 pm 
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Tequila Mockingbird wrote:
...
What about really mixing it up.

maybe it costs skills to obtain the ingredients.
...
and then maybe potion recipes cost gold.

That's basically an inversion of my proposed system, which requires gold for ingredients and skill/specials for potions (plus the necessary ingredients)

to make a potion:

2 basic ingredients = weak potion
4 basic ingredients = medium potion
2 basic + 1 advanced ingredient = strong potion
2 basic + 1 rare ingredient = powerful potion

I don't want to tie down # of different kinds of ingredients to the different strengths of potions. (For instance, "advanced" ingredients don't always mean "strong". They just mean more complex, or that the potion dips into the realms of alchemy that shouldn't be so easily utilized). I was hoping mods would create the required recipe (or alter a proposed one) when a member sends out for approval. It would allow for a less rigid structure of potion brewing. However, the above could be a good guideline.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:36 pm 
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I do like the concept and it sounds interesting but I imagine it will be hard to balance and potentially very costly.

I mean 25g for a single ingredient, looking at it from a battle reward + character progression point of view I imagine it will be slow to get strong.

would a 25g ingredient make a weak potion extremely powerful? I mean it is the cost of a manticore.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:34 pm 
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Any system that requires items that have a set limit per battle but don't automatically replenish and require someone to spend something to get them back is fraught with problems.

If an alchemist needs to purchase one time use items than other classes would have to as well for fairness sake.
-Rangers would need to be given a set number of arrows/bolts and have to purchase them.
-Rangers might even need to purchase their poisons.
-Mystics buying their seals
-Any character using throwing weapons would need to repurchase anything they didn't recover while fighting.

If we do want to employ such a system that is fine but it has to be fair for everyone, if one class needs to buy what is essentially their 'ammo' then it needs to be the same for everyone.

To Be Honest I do think that rangers should have a quiver which can only fit X arrows including unique arrows they might have created for specials, and they can purchase an extra quiver to carry more.



We could make alchemists a bit different give them 3 types of abilities. Extracts, bombs, and mutagens.

-Extracts are the more common potions types that can be made to do magic like effects,
-bombs are fairly self explanatory, flash bombs, smoke bombs, poison bombs
-Mutagens are Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde drinking one enhances one aspect of the alchemist temporarily. Speed, strength, intelligence, heightened senses.

I'll come up with a sample spell and ingredient system after I get home tomorrow, I'm being dragged to a Bridal expo by my fiance.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Bridal expo wow sounds fun!

sadly i'm engaged but with having a toddler money is too tight for a date to be set at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:14 am 
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Don't worry we're the same... Money's tight weddings going to be at least 3 years away

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Tequila Mockingbird wrote:
Bridal expo wow sounds fun!

sadly i'm engaged but with having a toddler money is too tight for a date to be set at the moment.

Khan Novaneau wrote:
Don't worry we're the same... Money's tight weddings going to be at least 3 years away

Wrong...thread? But, since it's here - 3 years of engagement? That's a long time, good sir!



Anyhow:

@Khan: I didn't mean that alchemists need to keep re-purchasing ingredients to make potions for every battle. I imagined your "stock" of potions would replenish the way everybody else's items/specials replenish between battles. Alchemists would only need to purchase ingredients to initially concoct a new potion - not to keep making it over and over.

I would, however, be more interested in your different classification of potions (Extract, Bomb, Mutagen). My real goal behind reworking this class was to give alchemists more room to customize and develop into unique characters, instead of cookie-cutter character w/ stock potions.

@Tequila: Again, those prices are subject to change. I kind'f just threw them out there. We can twiddle them to whatever exact points we like.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Okay so Bombs, Extracts, Mutagens.

My idea was when you make an Alchemist you choose one of the three to specialise in. Specialising doesn't stop you from choosing formulae from the other three, however the one you are specialised in will always be stronger.

Mutagen Specialist wrote:
A Mutagen Specialist's Mutagens are particularly potent, any mutagen you imbibe lasts for 25% longer, (rounded up)


Extract Specialist wrote:
An Extract Specialist has found ways to enhance their extracts by adding addition effects to their existing extracts by using skills and ingredients.
(Example; Oil Slick ignition: By placing a bottle with flame rock(fire ingredient.) inside the bottle of oil slick potion the alchemist can create an oil slick potion that self ignites when the bottle is thrown against a hard surface. When used the oil slick potion uses an additional ingredient a flamerock.)


Bomb Specialist wrote:
A Bomb Specialist loves his bombs, he carries so many bomb ingredients that sometimes he forgets where he put them, every four ingredients he spends towards bombs he gets one back, (only basic ingredients can be taken back.)


Quote:
Bombs are things like;

Concussive Bomb: When the bomb is thrown it explodes on impact throwing out a wall of blunt force in all directions. After 3m the force is severely weakened. (2x Air ingredients) weak

Frost Bomb: When the bomb explodes it releases an extremely cold frost wave freezing what it touches for 3m, similar in damage to ray of frost. (1x Water, 1x Air) weak'

Inferno Bomb: Creates a flaming wall that rolls outwards from the impact point for 10m before dissipating. (3xfire, 1xAir) strong


Quote:
Mutagens:
Feral Mutagen: Drinking this mutagen causes the alchemist to take on beast like properties, their muscles bulk up and skin grows fur giving them the equivalent of a medium speed boost. one inch razor sharp claws grow from their hands and feet. These effects last for 6 posts (2xEarth. 1x Air) medium

Hulking Mutagen: The drinker grows and bulks up increasing muscle mass significantly. Their strength is greatly enhanced and their weight and height increased making them hard to move around with any amount of force. However the muscle mass slows them and restricts blood flow to their brain decreasing their intelligence. This intelligence lose means no more mutagens, potion or bombs can be used for the duration. This mutagen takes 3 posts 'cure' after being made, and then lasts four post after it takes effect.


Extracts would be similar to the current alchemist list.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:10 pm 
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Most of that sounds pretty good, actually. I'm esp. found of the specialization options an alchemist can choose. For the Bomb specialist, does he get an ingredient back or a potion back during battle after using a bomb X times?

I'm still not wild about brewing potions on the spot. It doesn't make sense and would be very easy for an opponent to interrupt. But that's an easy point to change, I guess. Or was the point of mixing potion on the spot is that you could, potentially mix as many of a particular potion as you had ingredients for? So if you just spammed the ingredients for a "bomb" potion, you could chuck those around all battle? It seems innocent enough of a concept, but a little annoying.

Additionally, I'd still like to try for alchemists making up their own potions instead of just working from a stock list. Otherwise, the only real flexibility to the class comes from their specialization, which is mostly a one-time thing (except in the case of extract specialists, which get more customization of potions by combining things).

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:39 am 
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leboyX wrote:
Most of that sounds pretty good, actually. I'm esp. found of the specialization options an alchemist can choose. For the Bomb specialist, does he get an ingredient back or a potion back during battle after using a bomb X times? He gets an ingredient back, but he gets one back every four ingredients rather than every X bombs, this makes the rate even for all bombs. Four one ingredient bombs gets one ingredient back, two, two ingredient bombs get one ingredient back and one four ingredient bomb gets one back

I'm still not wild about brewing potions on the spot. It doesn't make sense and would be very easy for an opponent to interrupt. But that's an easy point to change, I guess. Or was the point of mixing potion on the spot is that you could, potentially mix as many of a particular potion as you had ingredients for? So if you just spammed the ingredients for a "bomb" potion, you could chuck those around all battle? It seems innocent enough of a concept, but a little annoying. Basically this, its makes a class that isn't restricted by having a number of uses of a spell, rather they have a global charge they have to decide what to do with. They could spam the same two ingredient force bomb all game if they wanted but they'd run out of ingredients eventually and lets face it after the third or fourth use an opponent will long have figured out a way to completely avoid it.

Additionally, I'd still like to try for alchemists making up their own potions instead of just working from a stock list. Otherwise, the only real flexibility to the class comes from their specialization, which is mostly a one-time thing (except in the case of extract specialists, which get more customisation of potions by combining things). That's workable, however we could create a hybrid system, Make two ways to gain abilities, the first is Research. Research is done after a battle where an alchemist experiments with what he's learned on his journey to create a new formulae, this costs skill/spells rewarded in battle and allows for the create of any mod approved formulae. The second is Recipes. Recipes can be purchased from a shop for gold and come from a pre created list starting with a dozen or so formulae giving alchemists something to do with their gold when they have no need for more potions or want something new but either haven't the creativity or the special to use to get it. Because an alchemist's combat longevity it bases around his ingredients rather than his formulae even with 100 gold of formulae he will still be limited in what he can throw out in a battle. Also it could create another avenue to make some gold back, after creating a custom formulae using a skill an alchemist can share it with the shop and receive two gold in royalties whenever another alchemist purchases it.

Formulae of course wouldn't be cheap, even a weak would probably cost 5gold minimum depending on what it did.


If all potions are pre made before going into a battle it completely destroys the need for an ingredient system at all. An alchemist that goes from his lab full of ingredients into a battle will be completely stocked full of as many potions as he can carry and not need an ingredient pouch...

I'm not against against taking a few pre-made potions into a battle, but have a limit on what can be taken pre-made say 6 basic ingredients worth maximum these ingredients aren't taken from the pouch and are basically free. Any potions beyond this are made during a battle, use ingredients, and take the post to make. (e.g. the alchemist dodges an attack leaps backwards away from his opponent while grabbing a vial from one pouch and ingredients from another and his post ends their the potion unable to be used until next post.



--To that end I would propose something else for the alchemist to start with, in addition to their basic ingredient pouch an alchemist also starts a basic Vial Bandoleer, this bandoleer can clips to hold up to 4 potions within easy reach on it. This allows an alchemist to make and then hold ready to use potions they mix. (e.g. Alchemist goes into battle with 2 potions made taking up two spots on the bandoleer, and as hostilities ensue makes 2 more and clips them on taking up all the spaces, now at a moments notice he can grab one of these potions and hurl it or drink it depending on its intended use." This makes prior planning very important for an alchemist because he can only use a "spell" he has already made ready to go.

You could also allow the size of this bandoleer to be upgraded with gold or perhaps with a custom armour.
or even have five types and be only allowed to own one.
-Basic which has 4 omni clips capable of holding any type of potion,
-Bomb which has 2 omni clips and 3 bomb clips which are specially shaped to hold only bombs in their round easily thrown bottles
-Extract which has 2 omni and 3 extract clips
-Mutagen which has 2 omni and 3 Mutagen clips
-Expert 2 bomb, 2 extract 2 mutagen clips



I have lots and lots and lots of ideas for what can be done with an alchemist class... trust me when I say this is barely touching the surface of my ideas. Makes me feel a little giddy thinking of the class, may even have found my second character class

**Edit** Perhaps Extracts could be the only formulae usable by allies giving alchemists a different play style in team fights

**EditEdit** Make aoe effects like bombs affect allies as well making bombs harder to use if you have an ally who is melee fighting your target..

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