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 Post subject: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:34 am 
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A couple of issues I can think of:



1. Prayer-boon, as brought up by musalis' masterclass thread.

Basically, the question is whether priests should be able to use boons while praying. The priest class post doesn't specifically address that issue, the closest is:

Quote:
You can operate as normal during prayer.



The argument that you shouldn't be allowed to do this can be broken into two points: a balance issue (aka "priests get too powerful if they can use both at once"), and a roleplaying issue ("you can't ask you God for too much at once"), both summed up well below by oso:
of_shattered_origins wrote:
> 5. Honestly, it shouldn't "suddenly" prevent you. I don't think you
> should have been able to use boons and pray at the same time in the
> first place-- for two reasons. First, it doesn't make sense to be asking
> the divine for assistance while asking for more. "Hey, Ochre, I need
> some stuff to kill some bad guys, help me help me help me-- by the way,
> I need this too [Boon used, 1x left]". Secondly, it has to be agreed on
> by the other party for you to use two abilities in the same post.
> Praying, in essence, is a class ability. I cannot use telekinesis and a
> spell in the same post and neither can a berserker use a rage and a
> special in the same post; how can you use a boon while praying?



Personally, for the roleplaying point, I've never seen using a boon a requiring asking the God. I thought you got the boon given to you once, and then could use it at your leisure without contacting the God every time.

About the balance point, I'm naturally biased because I am playing a priest. I don't think this is making the priest overly powerful, since the priest isn't getting anything while praying. The effects of the prayer only come after it is finished, and at that point the priest can use boons with or without this restriction.



2. Prayer clarification

The bibles say that you can have x prayers per page, but prayers go over multiple posts and thus can sometimes start on one page and end on another. Does this mean
a) you can only start x prayers per page?
b) you can only finish x prayers per page?
c) you can only pray on x prayers per page (so if you pray at least one post for a prayer on a page, it count as a prayer for that page)



3. level 3 bible

This has been bugging me for a while... what use is it to have 3 prayers one page 3 and beyond? A page is 15 posts. 3 of those will be God posts (since you finish 3 prayers), leaving 12 posts, so you'll have at most 6 posts to pray. A 1-post prayer is an invitation for the God to punish you for insolence, so you'll have to pray 3 2-post prayers. Assuming that 2 posts of prayer are enough not to get punished, it also really isn't long enough to get anything useful out of the prayers. This doesn't even take into account that the last prayer would be finished on the last or next-to-last post, and so would be even less useful, since there isn't really time for it to be useful.

And, of course, if you want to go beyond page 3, then you have more than 2 players, and as such even less posts for you to pray on.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:48 am 
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I have always thought the Priest class was a little unbalanced and even a little broken. However I haven't been able to come up with an idea to fix it... yet.

But onto the prayer while attacking or booning,a boon while praying I don't see as an issue, but a boon or opponents action should have the possibility to disrupt said prayers. If you pray with your voice, a boon that uses your voice should disrupt it. Also prayer should require a certain level of focus, if an opponent hits you with something that literally knocks you about that should be able to disrupt a prayer.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:29 pm 
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If nothing else, I'd like to move away from depending on a mod to get prayers answered. As the only mod who really had to answer a lot of prayers, it's rather...burdening to basically be involved in every battle Musalis was. It's not that BDF pestered me all the time, but it meant I had to keep my eye on every battle she was in. That's sometimes a strain.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:39 pm 
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For simplicity's sake, you could always make the priest class operate similarly to a caster class.

Have a predetermined boons list while "custom" boons (still working under the milestone system) are still given as choices by a moderator.

Additionally, you could move the priest down to the "caster" side of the house while pushing the spiritualist up to the agility class.

Further, you could move it to ANY mod can do a prayer post. It would give a more chaotic personality to a deity, yes, but it would be significantly more fun.

For example, instead of the golden, shining Ochre that Lbx gives... imagine Khan posting a punk-rock version of him with black hair and chains, being slightly more... ... "aggressive". It is still music, right?

... ... Also, different gods could give access to different "trees" of boons where some cross over. But in order to explain THAT idea, I'd need a lot more time than I have. I'll post if there's an interest to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:39 pm 
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I don't think a predetermined boon system would work, simply because there are so many different Gods, each of which would grant different boons. And people are also allowed to make custom Gods, for which there would be no way to have predetermined boons.

The prayer system is a staple of the priest class, so we probably wouldn't want to abandon that. Hm... if the prayer doesn't get answered by mods, how about they help boons instead? There are different ways this could be implemented... Prayers could boost the power of boons; or boons could need prayers in order to be activated. The basic idea I have right now would be to get some prayer points for a finished prayer, which could then be spent on activating or boosting boons somehow.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:32 pm 
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I agree. Prayer is the staple of the priest class. That's the one thing I DON'T want to change much. But it is burdensome for one mod to answer one character's prayers... so I think having ANY moderator being able to grant it would help limit said burden.

As for a predetermined list and custom gods, I think that'd be easy.

Each god would have their own, personal, tree. And they'd also have access to generic trees.

Ochre: Music
Orthos: Blood
Pyrakkha: Fire
Ahkkaryp: Water/Ice
Fenrir: Abyss
Jambor: Earth
Zoltan: Lightning/Wind

Generic Trees:
Evil (Harm)
Good (Protection)
Light
Darkness
War
Strength
Magic
Sickness

So, overall it'd be like this:

Ochre, God of Music, Good, and Light... so priests worshipping him would have access to boons from those said trees.

Orthos, God of Blood, Evil, and War... so priests worshipping him would have access to boons from those said trees.

For custom gods, they would just have to pick three generic trees.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:50 pm 
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How many different trees are we talking here?

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:25 pm 
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The only answer I have for that question is "Yes."

If we limit trees to having 7 spells/boons each (2 weak, 2 medium, 2 strong, 1 powerful)... It wouldn't... be... THAT... difficult... ... >_>

Thankfully we could also reuse some previous prayers and boons given. As well as modified versions of some spells to make it less creativity draining.

Fire boon: Priest's weapon of choice burns with divine fire, causing their damage to increase moderately, plus being able to very easily light clothing or wood on fire for five posts. However, conjuring this divine fire causes the weapon to crumble to dust after the boon ends. 1x per battle medium (Mage's Heat Metal spell)

Light boon: priest shoots a burn of divine light towards a target, leaving the person slightly disoriented and moderately burned on impact. 2x per battle (Warlock's Beamstrike spell)


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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:25 pm 
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Why are we trying to redesign the boon system? It seems to work well to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:29 pm 
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bluedragonfire wrote:
...

Why are we trying to redesign the boon system? It seems to work well to me.


I agree w/ BDF. Furthermore, this just sounds like we're gonna' slap on the generic framework of "spells" onto the priest class, which doesn't quite make sense. It's also limiting and makes priests more...vanilla. I never had a problem w/ cooking up boons for a priest, and I don't other mods would either.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:40 pm 
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Agreed boons are fine, the main concern with boons is to determine exactly how the affect a current prayer.

Prayers themselves will be easier if spread across all the mods. I like OSOs many faces of god idea.

-Side note wish my computer wasn't broken di from a phone is irritating

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:14 pm 
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Just suggesting stuff. *shrug*

Someone mentioned how priests could be considered spell casters and it popped into my head.

I'm going to continue with my thoughts though. Otherwise it'll bother me.

Quote:
Example Boons

Music (Ochre)
Banshee's Song: Ochre momentarily blesses the priest with an otherworldly voice, allowing a scream that can slightly disrupt an opponent's concentration and hearing for 2 posts. However, the effect lessens with distance. 2x per battle (weak)

Siren's Talent: With Ochre's blessing, the priest may infuse their voice with divine music, seeping through to their opponent's heart and soul. When heard, anyone within earshot will be affected with feelings of longing and regret: a nostalgic desire for something, though they may not know what. Thus, they may be less prone to fight, attack, or be more susceptible to sympathy and/or mercy. However, as with all sound, the voice can still be muffled by other forces. 3x per battle (strong)

Concussion: The power of sound is often underestimated by many. More than simply soul-moving, music has force enough to move the body along with its spirit. The priest has been gifted with knowledge of this power, and the ability to utilize it to a small degree. When the priest touches both hands to one another (in any fashion and to any degree), an explosive blast of sound can be emitted from their body. This "shockwave" does not project from their body to a great degree (5 to 7 feet). However, those caught within this small range can easily be knocked back 2.5 times that. The blow feels like being hit with a "soft" brick wall, jarring the mind and the senses. 3x per battle. (strong)

Blood (Orthos)
Red Claws: Orthos draws essence from the priest's hands and fingernails, forming a set of sharpened points of solidified blood over the priest's hands. These claws last for 3 posts during which the priest cannot use any other weapon. The process of creation is slightly painful. 1x per battle (weak)

Bloodboil: Orthos corrupts the priest's body with dark power, causing their blood to feel like it is boiling in their veins. This causes an immense amount of pain for the priest, but also increases the adrenaline running through their body. This gives them a great boost of strength and a moderate boost of speed for 3 posts, but completely limits the priest's focus. They are unable to use boons or pray while this is in effect. After ending, priest will be physically drained and weakened for two posts. Also, they will probably scream during and after the effect. A lot. 2x per battle (strong)

Fire (Pyrakkah)
Wielding Flame: The priest summons Pyrakkha's divine fire to cover a weapon of their choice. This increases the weapon's cutting power moderately and also releases a small burst of flame on impact, capable of lighting cloth or wood on fire. This effect lasts for 3 posts, but afterwards the weapon crumbles to dust. 2x per battle (medium)

Generic Trees:

Light
Shine: The priest summons divine light to burst from their body. This flare of light and heat can dazzle and burn an opponent slightly, though this ability must be used in close proximity to be effective. 1x per battle (weak)

War:
Battle Cry: A deity-inspired drive to fight flows through the priest's body, allowing a great battle cry to escape their body. This rallies the priest and any pets or comrades in the area, giving a slight boost to strength the post after this ability is used. 2x per battle (weak)

Example Deities

Ochre, God of Music, Good, Light
Orthos, God of Blood, Evil, and War
Pyrakkah, God of Fire, Light, and War


So... A priest that worships Ochre would be able to get Concussion, Banshee's Song, and Shine. But not Battle Cry.

A priest that worships Orthos would be able to get Red Claws, Blood Boil, and Battle Cry.

And a priest that worships Pyrahhka would be able to get Wield Flame, Battle Cry, and Shine.

:D

... ...

Now since that is out of my system, I still don't think boons and prayer should be used at the same time. However, it appears that has always been the case. I'm not here to break BDF's class.

As for the level three bible... I think this should be a weapon unique to the priest. That way, it remains useful for the priest. I think at level three, the priest knows their prayers by heart and has established a certain item as a relic to represent their god.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:46 am 
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I like how you've presented this, i dont know if you did this knowingly but each of the dieties you presented has a spell tree unique to itself and then also has secondary trees that seem to be more communal to different dieties depending on their alignment. which i think is very cool and i would like to see it expanded, although it would take some work to have every diety have access to three trees like this, although i think the unique diety "tree" should just be one skill/special unique to the diety and then the second tree be one that is only used by a handful of dieties i would say only 2-3 in each group and then the third tree be a tree communal to all dieties in that alignment. I dont know if this is what you wre thinking oso, but i think it would give some very cool customization to the class. I also think that the first person to create a character belonging to a diety could make up the skill to be approved by mods as to what they want their dieties skill/special to be, and that would greatly reduce the amount of work we would have to put into finding a skill for each one.

edit and this is what happens when i dont read the whole thread before posting,

i guess my addition is that the personal trees should be just one strong skill/special, and that the second tree should be a limited tree shared between 2-3 gods, that is some how better than the third generic tree shared by all 7

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:08 am 
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While I like the idea of a tree-based boon system I will argue that the boons aren't broken now.. What seems to be broken is the mechanic of prayer..

If the tree-based boon system is implemented it would then give gods access to many different types of prayer-answers. Like Orthos could grant a prayer with the basis of each of his tress that he 'controls'. Making the priest have to specifically designate which branch of the church of orthos he is praying too, and thus giving them a broader range of abilities to ask for.. I mean if Ochre was justice, music, and good, one thing Musalis could pray for would be justice right? So the god could grant a heavy weight on one leg of her enemy allowing her to just barely escape an attack that would have otherwise decimated her. I like how this could be used but it could also make priests -much- more powerful through diversity. It's harder to prepare for 3 different types of attacks instead of just one. From a roleplaying perspective I do not see how a warrior would have a fair chance in warding off 3 different styles.. Imagine one page you're hit by a fire ball, the next it's raining blood (slayer plays), and then thirdly the priest suddenly has a great increase in strength and speed.. It'd make it so that priests were essentially the ultimate-class. I'm tired, and studying and my brain hurts so if this comes off as mumbo-jumbo I'm sorry. :/

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Priest class
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:33 pm 
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You know what they say, if it ain't baroque, don't fix it!



See what I did there? Hey? Hey?



Alright alright I'm leaving, sheesh.

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