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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Khan Novaneau wrote:
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He gets an ingredient back, but he gets one back every four ingredients rather than every X bombs, this makes the rate even for all bombs. Four one ingredient bombs gets one ingredient back, two, two ingredient bombs get one ingredient back and one four ingredient bomb gets one back
[Maybe we should break it down to numbers. If a bomb took 4 ingredients to make, an alchemist gets 1 ingredient back. If they brew 2, 2-ingredient potions, they also get 1 ingredient back. Yes?]

Basically this, its makes a class that isn't restricted by having a number of uses of a spell, rather they have a global charge they have to decide what to do with. They could spam the same two ingredient force bomb all game if they wanted but they'd run out of ingredients eventually and lets face it after the third or fourth use an opponent will long have figured out a way to completely avoid it.
[Agreed. I have no problem approving this aspect of the class.]

That's workable, however we could create a hybrid system, Make two ways to gain abilities, the first is Research. Research is done after a battle where an alchemist experiments with what he's learned on his journey to create a new formulae, this costs skill/spells rewarded in battle and allows for the create of any mod approved formulae. The second is Recipes. Recipes can be purchased from a shop for gold and come from a pre created list starting with a dozen or so formulae giving alchemists something to do with their gold when they have no need for more potions or want something new but either haven't the creativity or the special to use to get it. Because an alchemist's combat longevity it bases around his ingredients rather than his formulae even with 100 gold of formulae he will still be limited in what he can throw out in a battle. Also it could create another avenue to make some gold back, after creating a custom formulae using a skill an alchemist can share it with the shop and receive two gold in royalties whenever another alchemist purchases it.

Formulae of course wouldn't be cheap, even a weak would probably cost 5gold minimum depending on what it did.

[You've obviously given this some thought ; ). I like how it blends gold + skills/specials in a balanced way]


If all potions are pre made before going into a battle it completely destroys the need for an ingredient system at all. An alchemist that goes from his lab full of ingredients into a battle will be completely stocked full of as many potions as he can carry and not need an ingredient pouch...

I'm not against against taking a few pre-made potions into a battle, but have a limit on what can be taken pre-made say 6 basic ingredients worth maximum these ingredients aren't taken from the pouch and are basically free. Any potions beyond this are made during a battle, use ingredients, and take the post to make. (e.g. the alchemist dodges an attack leaps backwards away from his opponent while grabbing a vial from one pouch and ingredients from another and his post ends their the potion unable to be used until next post.



--To that end I would propose something else for the alchemist to start with, in addition to their basic ingredient pouch an alchemist also starts a basic Vial Bandoleer, this bandoleer can clips to hold up to 4 potions within easy reach on it. This allows an alchemist to make and then hold ready to use potions they mix. (e.g. Alchemist goes into battle with 2 potions made taking up two spots on the bandoleer, and as hostilities ensue makes 2 more and clips them on taking up all the spaces, now at a moments notice he can grab one of these potions and hurl it or drink it depending on its intended use." This makes prior planning very important for an alchemist because he can only use a "spell" he has already made ready to go.

You could also allow the size of this bandoleer to be upgraded with gold or perhaps with a custom armour.
or even have five types and be only allowed to own one.
-Basic which has 4 omni clips capable of holding any type of potion,
-Bomb which has 2 omni clips and 3 bomb clips which are specially shaped to hold only bombs in their round easily thrown bottles
-Extract which has 2 omni and 3 extract clips
-Mutagen which has 2 omni and 3 Mutagen clips
-Expert 2 bomb, 2 extract 2 mutagen clips

[You're just a fountain of good ideas, aren't you? This is great!

It'd be cool if each bandolier wasn't a clear upgrade from another. If they each provide strengths/weaknesses that the others don't, you don't get a clear, one-right-way to do things.

Also, if they pre-make a potion, I'd say that should immediately subtract from the starting ingredients they have during battle.

My point behind pre-making potions was more the logistics of actually making a potion. The whole point behind a traveling alchemist is they don't have their lab nearby. If they did, you're right - they'd have an unlimited supply of ingredients. However, I understand/recognize your concerns and I think they're valid. Good ol' Nicholas Flamel (probably the most overpowered of old-time alchemists) had a "conveyor" belt that could mix up potions in a jiffy. Players probably couldn't have a device like that, but I suppose it shows how alchemists can adapt on the battlefield.

Overall, I think the bandolier idea is great. Furthermore, I like the idea of needing time to prepare a potion. If you look at how this class is shaping up, they're pretty awesome. Requiring that one post of prep time could really help balance the class out.]



I have lots and lots and lots of ideas for what can be done with an alchemist class... trust me when I say this is barely touching the surface of my ideas. Makes me feel a little giddy thinking of the class, may even have found my second character class

**Edit** Perhaps Extracts could be the only formulae usable by allies giving alchemists a different play style in team fights

**EditEdit** Make aoe effects like bombs affect allies as well making bombs harder to use if you have an ally who is melee fighting your target.

[Who there, Khan. Let's take this one step at a time ; ). Let me try and codify another version of the class that incorporates all these things. It won't be short, so it'll take me a bit. But I think this class has gotten a lot closer. You feel like helping brew new ideas for other classes?]

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:10 am 
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I get bored, and when I get bored I start designing game concepts and designs... But I can't code, draw or create computer art so they just sit in notebooks around the place... At least here words mean something... :)


In regards to the mixing potions in battle, I always figured it wasn't the 2-5 ingredients that made the potion what it was, it was the 2-5 ingredients mixed with a portion of the Alchemists own life energy that gave them their power. Without the alchemists power they are just items in a bottle, but with it they are quite amazing.


I'm already reworking a few of the other classes I just haven't put anything up.

I'm thinking ideas for the ranger class, I personally don't think poisons are very well rangery, more assassiny really. So I'm brain storming ideas for either a replacement system, or something to go along side it.

Doing stuff for the martial artist changing Ki a bit.

Essentially I want to go through class by class and improve their 'unique' mechanic.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:29 am 
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Khan Novaneau wrote:
I get bored, and when I get bored I start designing game concepts and designs... But I can't code, draw or create computer art so they just sit in notebooks around the place... At least here words mean something... :)

[I could really use you in my DnD campaign - it's hard coming up w/ original ideas.]

I'm thinking ideas for the ranger class, I personally don't think poisons are very well rangery, more assassiny really. So I'm brain storming ideas for either a replacement system, or something to go along side it.

[Yeah. It was always hard to use their "poison", and I thought it was too restrictive for a unique ability.]

Essentially I want to go through class by class and improve their 'unique' mechanic.

[Like the Fighter and their unique "I'm tough" ability?]


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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:26 am 
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leboyX wrote:
Khan Novaneau wrote:
I get bored, and when I get bored I start designing game concepts and designs... But I can't code, draw or create computer art so they just sit in notebooks around the place... At least here words mean something... :)

[I could really use you in my DnD campaign - it's hard coming up w/ original ideas.]
It would be interesting... but Australia, America... would be hard

I'm thinking ideas for the ranger class, I personally don't think poisons are very well rangery, more assassiny really. So I'm brain storming ideas for either a replacement system, or something to go along side it.

[Yeah. It was always hard to use their "poison", and I thought it was too restrictive for a unique ability.]
Yep... I'm thinking special arrows skills, perhaps involving quivers and the like

Essentially I want to go through class by class and improve their 'unique' mechanic.

[Like the Fighter and their unique "I'm tough" ability?]
Exactly... I want each class to have something that makes them that class. Fighters I'm thinking something that revolves around their shields.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:52 pm 
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Revised Alchemist wrote:

[All errata omited.]

Description wrote:
Alchemist
Starts w/: 5 gold, 1 standard ingredient satchel (holds 20 ingredients), and starting ingredients as detailed further below.
[Should we give them more gold to allow them the option of buying potions from the market?]
2 weak skills/potions, 1 medium skill/potion.
[I'm of the opinion that the bandoleer should be a simple upgrade Alchemist's can work toward. But, it's a luxury I don't think starting characters should get.]

Alchemists can choose one of 3 specializations:

  • Extracts: Characters can mix ingredients not normally mixed (or entire potions) for hybridized effects
  • Bombs: Characters get some ingredients back for each potion (or just bomb?) made (1 basic back for every 4 ingredients used in battle)
  • Mutagens: Characters using potions to alter their physique are granted a duration bonus of 1 post (25% is too large, and for anything lasting < 4 posts, 25% gets you nothing).


Ingredients wrote:
Ingredients
  • Four "common" ingredients (Earth, Air, Fire, Water). Beginning alchemists start w/ 4 ingredients of three of these, and 2 of the odd one out (eg. 4x Earth, Fire, Water; 2x Air).
  • Two "uncommon" ingredients (Light, Darkness). Beginning alchemists won't get these
  • One "rare" ingredient (Spiritual). Beginning alchemists won't get these.
    [We can tweak the prices for these all we like. 7 ingredients give a lot of room to customize, but not so much as to get crazy. Do we need more "uncommon" or "rare" ingredients?]


Brewing wrote:
Potions are created in two ways:
  • Research - Uses specials to brew. Approved by mods according to strength (along w/ the ingredients required)
  • Purchase - Recipes can be bought from a pre-mod-approved list in the marketplace. These will require both gold and specials of appropriate strength.

Furthermore, Alchemists can sell their researched potions to the marketplace for some price to be determine at POS by mods.
[Should our pre-made list of potions in the market be a bit...stronger, to make them more enticing to buy? (Price would, of course, reflect this).]

Potions are created for use in battle. If an alchemist purchases a bandoleer (details of this item are TBD), they can pre-brew a set amount (though these will detract from their "stock" of available ingredients during battle). Brewing requires a single post to finish.



Do we feel this accurately embodies all the feedback for this class thus far?

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:36 am 
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That's all looking really good, and I'm loving how the class is shaping up, but I have just one question. With the acquisition of new potion recipes, if purchasing the recipes from the marketplace is going to cost both specials AND gold, why would any alchemist ever not choose invention, since that only takes specials? I think what Khan meant with the purchasing of recipes was that they wouldn't cost specials at all, but would only cost gold since others had already invented the potion. This would mean that Alchemists would literally be able to buy specials in the form of premade potions, however given how gold reliant the class is, purchasing a huge number of recipes while neglecting the rest of your ingredients and gear is unlikely to be worthwhile.

I think to make it slightly easier for Alchemists who end up with too many free skill/specials, they should also be given the option of reverse engineering one of the potions from the marketplace, gaining the ability to use that potion for whatever special cost the original owner invented the ability for. This would mean that alchemists wouldn't just end up with 20 skills and no specials for lack of gold.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:07 am 
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Exactly what sawsaw said. I'd meant for market potions to be gold only, giving the alchemy something to spend gold on other than potions, because theres a limit to ingredient numbers if they somehow got a lot of gold to spend in lots of formulae they couldn't possibly use them all in the same battle like a mage could if they did 5he same. I agree with the rest though leboyx.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:10 pm 
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I put the special-requiring addition in there "just b/c"...I thought it'd add balance.

Along the lines of what SS said, I think Alchemists will often end up brewing more potions than purchasing them. The purchasing mechanic is more to let Alchemists have more recipes than they have ingredients, thereby allowing them more variety on the battlefield.

If we go w/ the reverse-engineering idea, Alchemists will basically have two methods of purchasing recipes: gold or specials. Since it is the marketplace, I think gold should be the only currency admitted. What if, when receiving an award, an alchemist could opt to convert their skill/special into gold?

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:44 pm 
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I would personally steer clear of giving one class the option to convert their special/skills into gold, because if they can do it, why couldn't all the other classes? I personally think that with the ability to invent potions (costing hefty special/skill points), the potential to reverse engineer marketplace potions (costing whatever the original invention cost in special/skill points) and then ALSO have to put points into actual skills, there's no reason why they would need to swap skill points for gold.

Perhaps when the mod hands out rewards, he should always give the alchemist the choice to take an offered special at one tier weaker in exchange for the difference in gold? That would allow alchemists to gain money at a faster rate when need be, but still requiring them to be taking specials like all other classes

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Sounds like a fair compromise to me.

If Khan (or anyone else) has no other objection, I believe this solidifies the patch for this class. Yes?

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:07 pm 
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It is definitely solidifying. Just need to review the fact and create the potion shop formulae.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:09 pm 
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The shop can happen later. I wanted to make an alchemist anyway, so I could probably start finding out what needs improving as I work through the class.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:14 pm 
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Yeah I was thinking alchemist or Ranger after I post up my idea for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:20 pm 
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I'm not a huge fan of being a ranger...could you take ranger, I take alchemist?

I can make the character basic so that whatever potions I brew could be potentials for the potion shop (I wouldn't be seeking out profit for them at this point).

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 Post subject: Re: Patch - Alchemist Class
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:23 am 
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Do you want me to do the write up for this afterall?

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